Pembroke Part II

It is my opinion that everything against Pembroke comes down to their lack of ability to self enforce the bylaws of the NHIAA. Once it was "proven" (I will put that is quotes because I know there are some that think it is not actually proven) that they have broken rules to gain an advantage, I believe that the NHIAA became their policing unit instead of the school administration. The NHIAA then determined that Timbas was ineligible.

As for Joyce. . . I have no idea about that situation. Was he home schooled as well? or did he attend a private school?

Since you don't technically graduate from any grade except 12th the rule is vague. It says when completed the 8th grade. It doesn't say the first time repeating etc. Repeating a grade at any level is a matter of opinion. In high school sometimes a student fails classes freshman year and is technically a freshman but considered a sophomore by the NHIAA. That is why they have the 8 straight semester policy.

If you go to the 8th grade and you repeat, it essentially means you continue, you have not violated any rule. IF a lawyer were in the meeting trying to prosecute Dom Timbas, I might agree with Falcon. But it is actually the opposite. There is going to be a lawyer in defense of Dom, and a group of people evaluating and just trying to do the right thing.

I would love to know what is the NHIAA policy for enforcement. Meaning Bedford complained and Pembroke subjected itself to an investigation. Could a school subject other schools to this same scrutiny, say Campbell complains about Central. OR everyone complains about Trinity. I think the precedence has been set and reversing those have such far reaching implications.

I bet Timbas gets his eligibility back

Hooper wrote:Since you don't technically graduate from any grade except 12th the rule is vague.    It says when completed the 8th grade.  It doesn't say the first time repeating etc.  Repeating a grade at any level is a matter of opinion.  In high school sometimes a student fails classes freshman year and is technically a freshman but considered a sophomore by the NHIAA.   That is why they have the 8 straight semester policy.

The NHIAA does not delineate freshman, sophomore, junior senior. The eligibility affidavit asks to list completed semesters of high school. For example, a freshman in September is listed as 0. Now, come spring for a sport like baseball, that same kid is listed as 1.

You can have a kid who does not get promoted from freshman to sophomore year in the fall and is ineligible for athletics. But, after the 1st quarter can gain eligibility back based on credits earned or grades. So the NHIAA does not classify kids other than semesters completed for eligibility purposes.

Hooper wrote:
If you go to the 8th grade and you repeat, it  essentially means you continue, you have not violated any rule.   IF a lawyer were in the meeting trying to prosecute Dom Timbas, I might agree with Falcon.   But it is actually the opposite.  There is going to be a lawyer in defense of Dom, and a group of people evaluating and just trying to do the right thing.

Actually, no this is not the case for school promotion in NH. Bedford Middle School submits the roster of kids who "graduate" - are promoted from 8th grade to 9th to the NH DOE. The DOE then verifies these names with the school of record for high school (in this case Bedford). Bedford had Timbas listed as a student coming in from the middle school, verified by the DOE. This means he is a freshman. Homeschooling him for another year is the right of the parent, but the NHIAA rule is clear, upon completion. He completed 8th grade, as verified by the NH DOE. So his eligibility begins. The NH DOE official records would most likely indicate that the athlete completed 8th grade at Bedford, and repeated as a homeschool student. That has nothing to do with the eligibility rule. He completed 8th grade... at Bedford.

Other schools do it, nobody is arguing that. I agree with the previous post saying Pembroke brought this scrutiny on themselves by NOT self policing, which is what the NHIAA relies on for enforcement. Pembroke did not do this. I said it before, I will say it again, the administration is to blame for allowing the rules to be bent and ignored BEFORE this issue arose. If they had not had the issues prior to this, the NHIAA probably does not blink twice on this and Timbas has eligibility (although no schedule to play).

Fire Klink, and reprimand Reardon, fire Alosa - start over and put this mess behind you if you are at Pembroke. Hire an AD who will follow the rules and self enforce the way that is should be done.

I am tired of hearing about jealousy of winners, nobody cares. Winning programs without rule manipulation exist all over NH and nobody is going after them, not other schools, not the NHIAA.

[quote="FormerFalcoln] I am tired of hearing about jealousy of winners, nobody cares. Winning programs without rule manipulation exist all over NH and nobody is going after them, not other schools, not the NHIAA.[/quote]

This is true - Portsmouth Baseball has been respected all these years in the past decade or so and nobody is questioning them. The same with Conant Basketball. Both are respectable programs and their AD's and coaches are well respected with no controversy or accusations of rule manipulation hanging over them.

Speaking of these respected programs. Their school rules are much stricter than the nhiaa guidelines. They hold their coaches and athletes to a higher standard.And police themselves. Yes, they all have their issues but handle it in house. Others should try this.

To Former Falcoln,

Reading all your posts tells me that you do have an ax to grind with the Alosas and just so you don't speak down to me, I have been a coach in NH for over 17 years and have dealt with Mr Corbin and know that he is a bully who will threaten people if they stick up to him.....

That being said, I do not believe that it is up to anyone on this anonymous type board to say who should or should not coach in this state. In my opinion, which I am entitled to have, the Pembroke people should fight for their rights because they are being considered guilty rather than being considered innocent until proven guilty which is a right under the constitution of the United States.

Thank you not in the know!

@ Not in the Know-
I have stated clearly in my posts that I have never had any dealings with the Alosas. I know who Matt and Frank are, I have never meet them in fact in my officiating and coaching career, I have never coached against them or officiated a game they have coached. I have dealt with Mr. Corbin as an official only in limited capacity ,and have never felt he is a bully. With that said, Pembroke already has had two player ruled in eligible and sat this season (guilty). They presented a plan to prevent transfers to the DI ADs which was the current rules already in place that they did not follow (guilty). Please save me the unconstitutional argument... High school basketball is not a right it is a privilege. Denial is not an argument of fact. Pembroke dropped the ball and did not follow the rules. Now they are paying the price. Sorry, that is the reality. If I have an axe to grind it is with the PA administration who allowed this to get to this level under thier watch.

@Former Falcon...I guess the only issue I have is that you seem to be very "in the know" and passionate about this particular case, yet after admitting that other schools have probably done this, and are currently doing this as well, I have not seen the same passion from your posts about investigating those situations?

I too know people that are close to the NHIAA and they will tell you unequivocally that the NHIAA and Corbin have a hatred for the Alosa's and will look to do just about anything to get rid of them. Even supporting the D1 coaches strong-arming another school district. Call it what you want, but that is what it is. If we are going to wave the laws and procedures etc around...wave them at everyone, public, private, home-school...all of them. Unfortunately, there are many cases that has not happened. If this kid was Josh Jones from whatever school...he's playing next year.

Have you or will you be investigating other schools? Will you be consulting your close friends with intimate knowledge of this case to push the NHIAA to swing their mighty sword of morality and justice for all to ensure all cases of students asking, and being granted a waiver (precedence) are thoroughly investigated?

I look forward to the letters and blogs to the Union Leader and Nashua Telegraph in the near future.

As a long time member (and top 10 poster!) on this forum, I respectfully request that we don’t let this conversation get personal.  This is a complicated issue, and no one has all the facts.  Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion, but please keep it civil.

If you haven't read it, and are interested, here's the link to the NHIAA Handbook, Article II - Eligibility

http://nhiaa.org/PDFs/2708/4ByLawArticleIIEligibility.pdf

Here's the "Semester Rule":

"Sect. 3: Semester Rule
A student is eligible for competition, whether or not he/she competes in interscholastic athletics, for no more than eight ( 8 ) consecutive semesters beyond the eighth grade. Approved participation by seventh and eighth graders does not count toward the eight ( 8 ) allowed semesters. Also, if a student terminates at one school he/she may not transfer to another school to increase eligibility.

Rationale for the Semester Rule: A maximum participation requirement: promotes timely progress toward graduation by discouraging students from delaying or interrupting their high school education; disallows students to enroll for one (1) semester each school year to increase athletic ability and skill; promotes equality of competition; diminishes risks stemming from unequal competition, and places emphasis on the academic mission of the school."

Hoopfan12 wrote:@Former Falcon...I guess the only issue I have is that you seem to be very "in the know" and passionate about this particular case, yet after admitting that other schools have probably done this, and are currently doing this as well, I have not seen the same passion from your posts about investigating those situations?

I too know people that are close to the NHIAA and they will tell you unequivocally that the NHIAA and Corbin have a hatred for the Alosa's and will look to do just about anything to get rid of them. Even supporting the D1 coaches strong-arming another school district. Call it what you want, but that is what it is. If we are going to wave the laws and procedures etc around...wave them at everyone, public, private, home-school...all of them. Unfortunately, there are many cases that has not happened. If this kid was Josh Jones from whatever school...he's playing next year.

Have you or will you be investigating other schools? Will you be consulting your close friends with intimate knowledge of this case to push the NHIAA to swing their mighty sword of morality and justice for all to ensure all cases of students asking, and being granted a waiver (precedence) are thoroughly investigated?

I look forward to the letters and blogs to the Union Leader and Nashua Telegraph in the near future.

I will start with your 1st paragraph: Because I live in the Concord area and have followed the area high schools sports for over 40 years... as a former coach and official. I played high school and college basketball here in NH and still officiate soccer, umpire baseball, and support local teams by going to games as a spectator. I do not live in Manchester or Nashua.

Second paragraph: The NHIAA waives the rule book because they are the oversight of the athletics programs here in NH. Once again - the NHIAA relies on self policing by member schools with AD's being the "compliance officers". When those athletic directors do not do their job, the NHIAA steps in... like with Pembroke.

Third paragraph: I do not investigate anything. What are you talking about? I talk with AD's and have relationships with coaches and principals all over the southern half of the state because of my former career coaching and officiating and still umpire and referee soccer. We all talk to each other. Some of these AD's I have known for 30 years. My friend who is a lawyer whom I posted on his behalf is an old college friend. So I guess I need to justify myself to satisfy you... satisfied?

Lastly - what do the Union Leader or Telegraph have to do with anything? I have no idea where your head is at.

Falcon,

With precedence being set that kids who repeat 8th grade are illegal. Do you think the NHIAA will enforce this upon anyone else. There are many students who will be ineligible next fall. AND players who are ineligible right now playing baseball.

Do you anticipate that these students will all be ruled ineligible?

Kinda long - sorry.
I don’t believe that students transferring or being held back is the true problem with regard to competitive balance. Those decisions will be made for a thousand reasons, sports included. The ADs all know that repeating 8th grade or the transfer to another school is really for sports but, they let it go. I believe that the coaches and administrators generally have the student’s best interests at heart. It is a pretty extreme measure to intentionally hold your child back in school or move to another district to play a sport. Most administrators don’t want to inject themselves into a major family decision like that so they allow special cases. I spoke to one AD (since retired). He had many athletes transfer to one of the parochial schools over the course of his tenure. He told me that he never once considered denying the transfer because he didn’t want to hurt the kid.
I think that the ADs like having flexibility when it comes to the repeating of 8th grade or players transferring. I would bet that they don’t want a hard and fast rule that says “transfer and you must lose a year of eligibility”. “Stay back and you must forfeit your senior year”. Denying Timbas his waiver Corbin has painted himself into a corner that forced him to deny Joyce as well.
Hypothetically, if a good player from New Market transfers to Oyster River or Dover to play at a higher level what is the real competitive impact? If a player from Merrimack Valley repeats 8th grade what is the likelihood he will physically hurt some younger player if he gets a 4th year. I believe that the ADs don’t sweat these kinds of situations too much.
However, when the situation becomes systematic and there are repeated transfers to one school, when there are multiple players repeating 8th grade at that same school, and when all of those players are linked to the same AAU program, that becomes a problem. The Athletic Directors don’t want to see any school hit that trifecta.
That is why the ADs decision to deny Pembroke a schedule. It was an elegant solution. They have evidence of recruiting (won’t be made public) and they want to force Alosa out. Denying them a schedule put the ball squarely in PA’s court. It is now up to Pembroke to save Matt or save their players, they can’t do both. If they fire Alosa, PA gets a NHIAA schedule. If they keep him, PA becomes gypsies, playing Prep School B teams and out of state. The team will still get to play (not hurt the kids) but, it will cost PA a lot more money for travel and lots of scheduling headaches.
The NHIAA should reinstate Timbas and the Joyce kid at the Timbas hearing. All Mr. Corbin has done with this waiver denial is created public sympathy for Pembroke by going after this kid. Given time, the lack of a schedule will force PA to resolve their Raider problem and the NHIAA can claim the high ground.

Perhaps if the bylaw stated beginning with ninth grade things would be clearer. It seems the interpretation of what it means to complete eighth grade is left up to whomever is in charge and what each circumstance dictates. I wonder if those bylaws were written before middle schools became a popular option and the norm du jour? Think about it - when many of us went to school we had junior high school up through 9th grade. Perhaps the original bylaw said 10th grade and 6 semesters - someone just changed it to 9th grade and 8 semesters. It would be interesting to get a list in the last 5, 10, 20 years the number of athletes in this position. No names - just the number that petitioned - were accepted/denied and what the reason was (for both).

I would have to think the committee or NHIAA head has a list of acceptible exception reasons. It's a hard pill to swallow for any parent to see other children granted exceptions that essentially have the same situation, but then see their child not excepted.

One would think this would bring about change in the bylaws. As any official knows - there's always some rule in the book that you say - "well that could never happen", but it must have happened one day for it to be a rule or exception. Why would anyone ever drop a fly ball in the infield? Well if you did you might turn an easy double play if there wasn't a rule that stated an umpire has to judge whether a dropped flyball was intentional and just allow the out on the flyball.

As I understand it, the Joyce ruling has nothing to do with the Timbas ruling, and if Timbas is reinstated it would have no impact on Joyce. I believe Joyce has already played 4 years of high school/prep school basketball.

Hooper wrote:Falcon,

With precedence being set that kids who repeat 8th grade are illegal.  Do you think the NHIAA will enforce this upon anyone else.  There are many students who will be ineligible next fall.  AND players who are ineligible right now playing baseball.

Do you anticipate that these students will all be ruled ineligible?

I have no idea. What other players eligibility has to do with Dom Timbas is irrelevant. Each schools athletic director is in charge of acting on behalf of the NHIAA as the compliance officer - if you will - for their own school. The paperwork, documentation, and situation of every kid is different. I can't comment on these "other cases" as I have no story - no background to base my stance on them. I have the information provided by the Concord Monitor's article regarding Timbas. That's it. I have the NHIAA bylaws via the web. I have my own experience with the NHIAA as a former coach & official. So for me to say yes or no to "other cases" is irrelevant.

I am entertained however, that Pembroke supporters (not all - but most) claim that they want the rules uniformly applied to the transfer rule regarding Timbas, but when it comes to uniformly applying the rules to the transfers who have come to PA, they want the rules bent, manipulated, or ignored. You can't have it both ways.

Ironman wrote:As I understand it, the Joyce ruling has nothing to do with the Timbas ruling, and if Timbas is reinstated it would have no impact on Joyce. I believe Joyce has already played 4 years of high school/prep school basketball.

Yes. You are correct.

In a conversation with someone last night who is very familiar with the ENTIRE Pembroke situation, they said with 90% certainty that Pembroke will have a change in administration next year... just sit and wait. It's coming. There is a PA administrator involved who will be "resigning".

Falcon, who exactly are the transfers that you refer to as breaking the rules? The two transfers who sat out didn't play so therefore didn't break the rules. Who else? can you name someone who transferred there and broke the rules? I am just curious because to my knowledge all the players I know started at 9th grade there at Pembroke..which rules is that breaking if you live in the town and have lived there for the past 4 years?

I look at the word transfer as meaning a student was attending said high school, and the went to another (i.e, a Concord area hoop player left their school junior year to attend a Catholic school in Manchester), or a kid leaves for private school?

The young man from Pembroke never set foot in Bedford HS...he moved to Pembroke and has lived there for 4 years. I believe that the NHIAA can fix the issues that arise by re-wording the By-Laws. State so that it is very clear, that the completion of your 8th grade year, the 1st one, starts the clock ticking on high school eligibility. The only appeal for a waiver would come from the parents and school showing documentation that a server documented academic or social gap puts the student at risk of falling behind as they are promoted to high school. Some of these laws need to have updated language that reflect more of the current happenings, as opposed to the 1980's.

Will be an interesting day, but from what I hear, the kid has no shot. Not much of an appeal when minds are already made up. Perhaps it is time for an independent group not affiliated with schools or the NHIAA to hear these appeals. That would be the only true non-biased ruling.  Random thoughts.

@Former Falcon...you asked earlier where my head was at...still reeling from Bruins game 7.

True that he has spent all 4 years at pembroke..other than the 2 who didn't play /therefore already penalized/ who attended a different high school? Falcon can you answer that? While staying fairly current please.

Falcon
To say that the Timbas ruling has nothing to do with others is not understanding what precedents means.

Trinity Brady and Guertin will all be greatly affected by todays rulings because they have students transfering in from other districts and if other districts squak (like Bedford about Pembroke) many students (including kids playing right now for Trinity baseball and lax) SHOULD be inelligible.

You show some bias against PA in saying they are not connected.

tom2 wrote:Falcon, who exactly are the transfers that you refer to as breaking the rules? The two transfers who sat out didn't play so therefore didn't break the rules. Who else? can you name someone who transferred there and broke the rules? I am just curious because to my knowledge all the players I know started at 9th grade there at Pembroke..which rules is that breaking if you live in the town and have lived there for the past 4 years?

I used transfer when I should have used eligibility in the previous post

tom2 wrote:True that he has spent all 4 years at pembroke..other than the 2 who didn't play /therefore already penalized/ who attended a different high school? Falcon can you answer that? While  staying fairly current please.

As I said - I used transfer instead of eligibility. My mistake. I was intending to say that PA supporters want eligibility rules used uniformly across the board, but when it comes to recruitment rules from the NHIAA, they have manipulated them and searched for loopholes - this is what has out PA in the ENTRIE scenario they are in.