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Pembroke Part II

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Post  FormerFalcoln on Fri May 09, 2014 10:19 pm

At Not in the Know
No I have never had any interactions with Frank or Matt Alosa. I have ever even meet them. So I have no axe to grind. I have observed them in thier attempts to be big fish in the little pond of NH basketball. I have death with the NHIAA for over 30 years, coaching, officiating, etc... The organization has one purpose: further the sports for kids here inNH. What the Alosa's have done for years is dare the NHIAA to do something. Now they have. Again, the adults: parents, administration, and the NHIAA have created this scenario for the kids. The parens manipulated the rules, under the watchful eye of the Alosas, and the PA administration did the same and allowed these kids to be put where they are now.

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Post  Bert54the1 on Sat May 10, 2014 9:57 am

I don't know much about the NHIAA. But what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for organizations like you. If you let my son go now, that'll be the end of it. I will not look for you, I will not pursue you. But if you don't, I will look for you, I will find you, and I will sue you.

I was watching TAKEN last night.  Liam is a bada$$.

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Post  Hooper on Sat May 10, 2014 9:07 pm

"Good luck. (Click)" Pat Corbin

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Post  tiger46 on Mon May 12, 2014 1:23 pm

I'm surprised that Jeremy Leveille hasn't weighed in of this. This is the kind of subject he usually has strong opinions on. NH notebook has been conspicuously silent on the subjects of repeating of 8th grade and Pembroke not getting a schedule.

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Post  FormerFalcoln on Mon May 12, 2014 10:26 pm

So - talked to a lawyer I know who has followed this situation in the papers and he read the NHIAA bylaws today after a game I was umpiring when we went for a coffee. As he sees it, the Timbas family has no case. He said the bylaws are pretty clear and that without documentation from BEDFORD regarding the need to be held back, the the player in question IS subject to the semester limits rule once he left BEDFORD. Now, this is him saying this not me. He went on to say that had the family homeschooled him 1st, then enrolled in 8th grade at a public school he WOULD be eligible as the school Recognized a need to hold him back based on social, emotional, or academic growth. Trust me, he knows his law. He teaches law classes at UNH Law and teaches Education Law at Plymouth State too. He has worked in the past with the NH school boards association and the NH school administrators association too. He is not just throwing this out there. He said he knows there are lawyers out there that think the Timbas family has a case, and they are more than willing to take the Timbas family money. But he told me if he were still doing civil cases, and this case were presented to him, he would advise the family that they have no case.

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Post  tiger46 on Tue May 13, 2014 1:08 am

At Falcon:
I’ve been following this pretty closely and I don’t think I’ve seen anyone say that what Timbas did wasn’t against the rules as they are written. To that end – I agree with you and your lawyer friend that the court probably isn’t going to reinstate him. However, that is not the interesting question. It’s not what has so many people up in arms. The core complaint that I have with the NHIAA is their inequitable application of this rule and to a lesser extent, the transfer rule. Did your lawyer friend comment on the dozens of players who have repeated 8th grade for athletic reasons and were granted waivers? It would be interesting to hear his thoughts on those kids.
When the Timbas case first came to light I knew of 6 players who had repeated 8th grade. With only a little digging that number is up to 12 not counting the two players who have been denied their waiver request recently. Some of these players have already received waivers. Why?
That is an answer that the Timbas’ will only get by going to court. Maybe making Mr. Corbin answer under oath why so many others received waivers when he denied their son, will be worth it to them. Like holding a player back and transferring him to another town, a lawsuit should be up to the parents.
Again, I'm not pro Pembroke here - the fairness of this specific case concerns me.

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Post  FormerFalcoln on Tue May 13, 2014 8:17 am

@ Tiger -

I know that the NHIAA has not been consistent in their application of rules - they never really have been. In fact, that is part of the issues with the NHIAA and the pressure P. Corbin has faced over the last few years regarding the waivers, competition, all star events, amateur status, etc... this is one of the flaws with the "self policing" that schools do here with regards to the rules & policies. Administrators, committee members, and the like have been frustrated with Corbin and the NHIAA with how things are handled. I know first hand of MANY issues Corbin and the former asst. director had with communication between each other, decisions, rulings, eligibility, etc... they were not on the same page.

I guess if Timbas wants to waste his money just to get testimony from Corbin, who is no longer the director of the NHIAA, then so be it. What will that accomplish? Ok, piece of mind. But, his son still will be ineligible, those other waivers still went through, and the NHIAA will be under new leadership in the top 2 offices, not just the lead office. So taking Corbin or the NHIAA to court really accomplishes nothing in terms of moving forward with how the NHIAA does things.

I know of at least 7 or 8 athletes in my career who did repeat the 8th grade - all of whom admitted after the fact - that it was for athletic reasons down the line. I know of two former football coaches who did it with their sons, a current football coach who did it with his son and daughter, two basketball players in the mid 90s who did it (BTW - yes they both played @ Trinity under Frank Alosa - their fathers admitted that they held the kids back once they graduated from Trinity), and at least 3 hockey players (2 @ Concord, one at Brady) who did it in the late 90s early 2000's. It happens, it has happened. Oh - and 2 soccer players in the late 90's.

Is the Timbas ruling unique. No not really. All of the case I mentioned the kids repeated public school for the 8th grade or transferred schools to do 8th grade again. The Timbas case is the 1st homeschooled case I have heard about. Has it happened other times? Sure? Maybe? I don't know. That is what my friend who is a lawyer said is the nail in the Timbas case is the homeschool after completing 8th grade at a school. So who knows. I agree with you Tiger, but I do not know what will be accomplished from Timabs taking the NHIAA or Corbin to court. My friend indicated it would probably be a hearing with just a judge and lawyers, and may never get to testimony.

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Post  1moreknowitall on Tue May 13, 2014 10:58 am

If paperwork was never submitted correctly after 8th grade...I don't think he is considered as repeating 8th grade. From what I have read it seems like he was home schooled after attending Bedford Middle School? If that is the case I think it would mean he repeated 9th grade and there lies the problem.

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Post  JAF on Tue May 13, 2014 12:01 pm

Take care in what you "assume" about paperwork. Unless you are *the* parent or *the* administrator you don't know for 100% certain whether things were done properly or not. Just think if it was and that's the crux of the issue... Falcoln has your lawyer friend considered that realm of possibility? Without knowing all the facts or being part of the case, your lawyer friend is only stating an opinion based on what he knows the law is. Nothing different than any of us blog yahoo's are doing :-)

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Post  tiger46 on Tue May 13, 2014 12:03 pm

At 1moreknowitall:
I not sure I’m following you.  Are you saying that from a competitive standpoint repeating 8th grade at a Parochial school, Charter school, or Montessori school somehow is different than repeating in Home school?  According to Pat Corbin’s own statement he denied the waiver because he felt it was for competitive advantage, not because the parents didn’t handle the home school paperwork correctly or that he repeated 9th grade.
I find it hard to believe that Mr. Corbin feels the home schooling in this case adds to the competitive advantage over a more traditional classroom environment.  
Quoting Hooper:
Sect. 3: Semester Rule
A student is eligible for competition, whether or not he/she competes in interscholastic athletics, for no more than eight consecutive semesters beyond the eighth grade.
To repeat 8th grade, a student had to have completed 8th grade.  Any repeat is a violation of the rule, not just for home schooled kids. I just don’t see how the Timbas case is different than any of the other players who have had waivers approved.

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Post  1moreknowitall on Tue May 13, 2014 2:08 pm

At Tiger
I don't know the facts, but if his home school year was considered to be a 9th grade year he's in a different boat than the kids who repeat 8th grade. His 8 semester clock started ticking during that home school year as opposed to the kids who repeat 8th grade if in fact the home school year was considered a 9th grade year.

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Post  Hooper on Tue May 13, 2014 3:08 pm

I have a different look at this.

First this is all because Bedford's AD cried foul at Timbas being eligible. People want to scream about PA's lack of sportsmanship (which is legitimate) than Bedford should be put in the same boat. I say this because this same AD must know about the kids at Trinity that are doing the same thing and says nothing. Why? because those kids aren't from Bedford.

The NHIAA will rule with Dom Timbas because

1- it is the right thing to do

2- the rule is unclear, and the courts will side with the student if the rule is unclear. All NHIAA people will tell you they almost always lose in court. The won't want to go to court on this.

We shall see

Though I am not a lawyer, I do know something about the NHIAA rules. IF they rule against Dom Timbas,

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Post  Hoopfan12 on Tue May 13, 2014 4:55 pm

Hooper:
I wonder if the fact that the current Bedford AD was the AD at Concord High when Matt Alosa was at Rundlet Jr. High,  and he moved to Pembroke because Concord did not let Freshman play varsity sports at that time period has anything to do with them crying foul?

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Post  middleschoolball on Tue May 13, 2014 5:51 pm

Hoopfan12 wrote:Hooper:
I wonder if the fact that the current Bedford AD was the AD at Concord High when Matt Alosa was at Rundlet Jr. High,  and he moved to Pembroke because Concord did not let Freshman play varsity sports at that time period has anything to do with them crying foul?

Hoopfan12 the current AD at Bedford did not come to Concord until Matt's senior year at Pembroke Academy.  The AD that was in place when Matt was at Rundlett was Bill Haubrich, Sr.  Please get your facts straight before you make assumptions..


Last edited by middleschoolball on Tue May 13, 2014 10:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Hoopfan12 on Tue May 13, 2014 5:58 pm

@Middle school....hooper did not write that I did....my bad. Had dates wrong. But the current Bedford AD has no love loss for the Alosa' s either

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Post  Hooper on Tue May 13, 2014 6:07 pm

Middleschool ball,

The FACTS that are relevant here is:

Whitmore was at Concord and has a rocky relationship with the PA people

He did complain about Timbas being eligible, that is why THIS KID, and THIS KID ONLY is being scrutinized. He has turned a blind eye to all other kids including those in his own district. (Check there football program) IF Dom Timbas was not from Bedford going to Pembroke this would not be an issue.





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Post  FormerFalcoln on Tue May 13, 2014 9:25 pm

@ Hooper
From my lawer friend (this is cut and paste from his text to me) after he read this thread tonight...

The rule is crystal clear, completion of 8th grade and you get 8 semesters of eligibility. Even Mr. Timbas said it was thier decision to keep thier son back. Motive is irrelevant as far as the law is concerned. He completed 8th grade, with credits from an accredited NH middle school "promotion earned" by Bedford. The court will not look to set a precedent against a state organization due to one person interpreting the rule to allow for another year of middle school as homeschooled. Ignorance of the rules does not trump the rules set forth by the NHIAA. Whoever offered counsel or advice to this family clearly had no idea of the rule, nor, in my opinion, did the parents research the rule ahead of time to know what would ethe eligibility requirement. Mr Timbas clearly states in the paper ( which was a bad move) that the year was not motivated by athletics, but rather social motivation for thier sons development. So the desire for more eligibility as stated in the article, IS basketball, not for social growth. That article will do more to damage the case for the family than if they had never spoken to the paper. They contradicted thier motives and that will be brought up in court.

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Post  FormerFalcoln on Tue May 13, 2014 9:26 pm

Lawyer

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Post  Hooper on Tue May 13, 2014 9:50 pm

Well the one wild card is this is not a court of law. It's a bunch of people trying to do the right thing. Which is why we have committees.

Your lawyer friend may be correct, but I am hopeful.


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Post  FormerFalcoln on Tue May 13, 2014 10:11 pm

His point is that this should never see the inside of a judges chambers. I doubt the NHIAA will switch thier position as they will then set a precedent. They were recently burned with setting a precedent in girls hockey when they let a girl at Brady stay on the boys hockey team, when Brady added irks hockey. Two years later, when St Thomas added girls hockey, a ill petitioned to stay on the boys team, she had played for 3 years on the boys team. The NHIAA said no, and they appealed to a judge. The judge ruled that the NHIAA set the precedent with Brady and that the girl at St Thomas can play on the boys team. So, the NHIAA is not about to flip on this ruling and open the flood gates of holding kids back in8th grade.

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Post  middleschoolball on Tue May 13, 2014 10:16 pm

Hoopfan12 wrote:@Middle school....hooper did not write that I did....my bad. Had dates wrong. But the current Bedford AD has no love loss for the Alosa' s either

I just fixed it - sorry Hooper.

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Post  Hoopfan12 on Tue May 13, 2014 10:32 pm

If it is precedent you speak of...than the first petition granted by nhiaa in favor of a player is precedent... which there are many

For the record..you don't earn credits in middle school...your promoted...sometimes before your ready

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Post  tiger46 on Wed May 14, 2014 12:25 am

Again, the lawyer speaks only to the repeat of 8th grade. We all concede that the player violated the rule as it is written but, I agree with Hoopfan. The precedent has been set and reset and reset again - on and on. I would be willing to bet the waiver to allow 4 years after repeating 8th grade is granted far more often than denied.
As to a lawsuit, I’m not a lawyer but, if my kid were in this situation, I’d fight. Even if it cost me a good deal of money and I was sure to lose. I wouldn't just bend over and take it. Maybe the case has no merit. However, if a suit is brought, there likely will be discovery and depositions at a minimum. The NHIAA could have to turn over e-mail and explain under oath, why they have chosen to enforce the rule in this case but, not enforced it on others. I might be wrong but, I don’t see them welcoming that scrutiny.

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Post  manchfan on Wed May 14, 2014 10:14 am

After reading all of this about Pembroke, I believe the big issue here is Pembroke's inability to self enforce the rules and bylaws of the NHIAA.  In the case of other players that have repeated 8th grade it is on the individual school to determine eligibility.  Pembroke has shown that they are not self policing so the NHIAA probably felt as though they needed to step in and start enforcing the rules for Pembroke.  

This is why I think other players are not getting called out.  Just a thought. . . could be completely wrong, but I figured I would throw it out there. Very Happy

Also, Timbas being ruled ineligible is a moot topic at this juncture because Pembroke will not be playing an NHIAA schedule unless something changes.  If they are not playing an NHIAA schedule then Pembroke will have the ability to use any players that the school allows.


Last edited by manchfan on Wed May 14, 2014 10:16 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Pronoun and Noun agreement**)

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Post  JAF on Wed May 14, 2014 11:05 am

manchfan wrote:After reading all of this about Pembroke, I believe the big issue here is Pembroke's inability to self enforce the rules and bylaws of the NHIAA.

What specifically from what you read makes you come to that conclusion? Others opinions? Are you 100% sure of all the discussions held within the Pembroke administration regarding this situation? There's nothing from what you read that makes you believe Corbin targeted Timbas/Pembroke? Feel bad for the player from Gilford who is probably caught up in everything going on and would have probably received a waiver in any other given year... Of course that's my opinion without knowing anything about his situation other than what's typed into the twitter feed to the left.

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