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Officiating in March 1 Games/Flow of the Game

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Re: Officiating in March 1 Games/Flow of the Game

Post  JAF on Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:39 pm

I agree about the (non) calls, but early on Merrimack certainly had a couple no-calls go their way too. I think the decision early on was to let them play. The two teams "played hard" all over the court and a lot of contact was allowed.

Whether what gets called changes in Durham - who knows. It's certainly a balance between letting the flow of the game happen vs. trying to over officiate. With 3 officials it doesn't mean a better game is called - it's all in the interpretation and what's in your area. And making your free throws is the key - how many times through rec, travel, school practices & games do you try to impress the importance of the free throw to the players especially when they get to tourney time.

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No flow

Post  basketballtime on Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:28 pm

JAF let's not forget you can't have flow during a game if your being repeatedly fouled. I would rather have an over officiated game than not because you know sooner or later the players who are fouling will be out of the game and an actual basketball game will break out. bounce

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Re: Officiating in March 1 Games/Flow of the Game

Post  goldenbear on Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:38 pm

The BG kids play hard on D but if they do get officials that call hand checks they will have a hard time defending.

I love the banging down low Mansfield as to be my favorite player this year but I hate the physical play up top it ruins the flow of the game

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Flow of the game is not in the rulebook

Post  chicagokid43 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:52 am

If I hear flow of the game one more time.. Is that written in the rule book anywhere? Let's get this strait I am a BG fan. I have coached some of those players as far back as 4th grade and when I sit in the gym I am hoping they do well. However this flow of the game stuff is absolutely the worst thing in this state when it comes to the referees. You want to control the flow of the game? Control it by forcing the players that are constantly hacking,holding and checking to the bench for the fouls they are committing. Get the team that is taking the hits early into the bonus and force the defense to play by the rules and when they don't the other team will get free throws. Keeping the flow of the game is what officials use to make sure they get out in less time. That line is not in the rule book, is not how you keep the game fair and is not what the official is there for. Show me that line in the book guys, it isn't there.

However that being said the outcome of this game would not have changed other than the final score being closer. BG is still the team to beat and I will be in the building again when they play Salem.

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Re: Officiating in March 1 Games/Flow of the Game

Post  JAF on Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:59 am

About a month ago BG played a game where 28 fouls were called in the first half and even more in the second half. The leatherlungs in the stands were screaming to let the boys play and stop calling all the fouls. The game truly had no flow and obviously no one stopped fouling or violating just because it was being called. So that throws "that theory" right out the window.

While the word flow may not appear in any portion of the rules, it certainly applies in how one views a game and the determination whether the contact made is a foul. Contrary to popular belief basketball is a contact sport and there is a rule about inadvertent contact. If you've ever been to the officiating course or been to a clinic then you'll get a far better appreciation for the word flow as well as understanding the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. This fall, step up to the plate - find out where the apprentice course is being held, pay your fee, and take the course. Put aside 2-3 hours every Monday from Sept. through Nov. to listen to the dulcet tones of Murph explaining the rules. Take the rules test, get an 86 or better, and then get yourself plenty of game action from Oct. thru Feb. Finally, then let us know when we can come to Central next Feb. to watch how the game should be called.

Here's my take - unless you've ever put on the stripes in a game higher than 5th/6th grade travel - perhaps you should get off your white horse and stop worrying so much about what is and isn't called. The kids adjust to the game - it's *their* game. Do officials make mistakes - sure. Are some officials better than others, yep. Do coaches, players, parents, and fans make mistakes - sure. Are some coaches, players, parents, and fans better than others - sure. Move on. Why direct all the criticism for how the game is played at the officials? There is no way single handedly they could appease everyone's view of how the game "should be" played or called.

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Officiating in March 1 Games/Flow of the Game

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:08 am

Excellent post JAF.

Words that "Constant Whiners" about officiating need to understand.

Now, this thread is starting to get way off the beaten path of March 1st games. Once again any officiating praise or criticism from this point on can get started in the Bleachers Section. Pretty pretty please...... With sugar on top of it.

Thank You !!!

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JAF and T and F Continued

Post  chicagokid43 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:17 am

Don't you guys think it is funny that I am unhappy with how the game was called even though I was pulling for the team that was taking advantage of the lack of calls? The NBA has even tried to cut back on the riding players in the open court and hand checking because the refs as high up as the NBA were letting too much go. You really want to have flow in a game make players use their feet and athleticism to get and stay in front of the guy he is guarding. That is part of the game that you get a step,cause help,free up a man,make a pass and... The way the game was called on that night is not the way it is suppose to be called. When a player gets an advantage and a step on the guy guarding him, bumping and holding in the open court is the easiest call to make. That is not brain surgery and does not take a class to understand. Legal guarding position is not something you do with a forearm or a hip check.
As for the fans saying let them play, my guess is it was the team that was getting called for the fouls. As for taking a class and not knowing what I am talking about I would say that every day on here fans,refs and coaches talk about the players and decisions the coaches make. Nothing wrong with including how the refs called the game as part of the story. I continue to believe that if these two teams played with different officials and even more so if they played with 3 officials at UNH the game would be much different.

If we stand by what you say and make the calls based on keeping the flow it is an big advantage for some teams. I do not want teams to gain an advantage because they have more guys and can foul more often. Call the game based on the rules in place and allow how many fouls are called to force the players to adapt their tactics. No one wants to see a player who is much more skilled and has put in the long hours developing those skills being taken out of games because the flow of the game was more important.


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Re: Officiating in March 1 Games/Flow of the Game

Post  EBlessNHSP on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:35 am

Moved this discush to the Bleachers...

ChiKid you are right and I agree with you - you can discuss the officials its part of the game. Over the course of this season however if you look back at our game threads virtually every single one has turned towards critiquing the officiating. It's getting tiresome and takes away from the focus of this forum (IMO) which is the players, teams and performance on the court. I don't mind discussing officiating within the game threads as long as we dont focus on it for 3 pages which is where this one was headed.

BTW - I agree 100% with everything JAF commented on and might add - t's very easy to make a call from the "bleachers" after the fact. Doing it within the "flow" of the game is a much more difficult task. (God I feel like we've been down this road before......)

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Post  chicagokid43 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:39 am

About a month ago BG played a game where 28 fouls were called in the first half and even more in the second half. The leatherlungs in the stands were screaming to let the boys play and stop calling all the fouls. The game truly had no flow and obviously no one stopped fouling or violating just because it was being called. So that throws "that theory" right out the window.

Which game was this? I am very curious on the outcome and on how many foul shots were give to the other team? I am willing to bet that the other team benefitted by the calls and got to the line earlier in the quarters and instead of losing possessions at least had chances to score at the line. That is what the free throw line is for. That is what the bonus is and the double bonus. If the rules of the game are actually created so a team that consistently breaks the rules while defending gives the offensive team a chance to go to a line and shoot unguarded. To me that is proof right there that the idea is to make calls and punish a team for the continual fouls. That is why the bonus is in effect.


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Re: Officiating in March 1 Games/Flow of the Game

Post  goldenbear on Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:08 pm

About a month ago BG played a game where 28 fouls were called in the first half and even more in the second half. The leatherlungs in the stands were screaming to let the boys play and stop calling all the fouls. The game truly had no flow and obviously no one stopped fouling or violating just because it was being called. So that throws "that theory" right out the window.


Here's my take - unless you've ever put on the stripes in a game higher than 5th/6th grade travel - perhaps you should get off your white horse and stop worrying so much about what is and isn't called. The kids adjust to the game - it's *their* game. Do officials make mistakes -


You contradict yourself right in the post about flow adjust to the game and kids adjusting.

Many officials are bad in this state and it makes the games suffer, why cant people just admit it an move on and try to help change it. I dont get the defending the unit as a whole, the state needs help to fix this and make them more accountable, they get paid a decent amount of money for their time a lot more than the coaches due for the hours they put it.

And I have officiated mens' league down in Florida and I think it as lot easier then coaching or playing at high level.

Many of the officials have never played the game at even the High school level and just do not get the game. I am sick of people complaining about the complainers instead admitting there is some changes that need to be made to help the game in this state.


Last edited by The Assistant on Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:17 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Just make your point - no need to be negative about another poster.)

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Re: Officiating in March 1 Games/Flow of the Game

Post  Tulliver on Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:23 pm

But, if you look at this topic in general.. .it is usually the same posters who see substantial problems with the officiating in the state.
So, it's not exactly a given that everyone else is going to admit we need to fix the system.

I think there are strengths and weaknesses but sometimes I read these posts and it comes across as those NH high school refs are the new mafia. I think at some point.. the hyperbole.. be it from frustration or just to get a laugh... has FOR ME distracted from substantiated points about the officiating system in NH.

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You say that Tulli however

Post  chicagokid43 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:33 pm

You say that Tulliver but that is not always the case. You can talk to many people in this area including many on this site and some officials are notorious for not calling much at all. That tells you right there that despite some of the same ones complaining here that the rumors and feelings about some are notorious. Interestingly enough a referee that was talked to over the week this week is now retiring from the game because of this and other issues with some of the older generation that are still around. Sick of the politics and sick of calling a game by themselves because they older guys do not want to make calls. It is an issue,it will not be fixed until enough people call these guys out. It is something that needs to be fixed,should be talked about and we have every right to demand nothing but the best with what these guys get paid. It is a good check for the amount of time spent and demanding that the guys do the work instead of just keeping the flow is something that I will continue to do.

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Re: Officiating in March 1 Games/Flow of the Game

Post  Tulliver on Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:17 pm

Chi kid...

I have to tell you though... I know many more people who do not see the state of officiating in NH hoops as a serious issue. There are flaws in EVERYTHING and there is always room for improvement.

I am always interested in what you say though because we see very few common games and so I do wonder if we see different refs for the most part. But truthfully, I know a lot of people in my local area affiliated with sports and do not hear of this as an issue.

Yes, things come up here and there.. but no one plays, coaches or officiates a perfect game.
I just don't hear it from people except a few on here.

Just my take

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Many games at many levels.

Post  chicagokid43 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:29 pm

I am well traveled and what bothers me the most is the difference of the officiating by many of the same guys from one level to the next. I have seen the same guy on back to back nights at a NHIAA event call nothing and then go to a PREP school game where they were much more in control of the game. I have also many referees in this area turn off the whistle as the score widens which is a thorn in my side as well. Many local guys feel that once a game is somewhat in hand they can swallow it and move on to the next one. Again really annoying.
I also was amazed at home the games I seen at the high school level in Indiana were called last year. I know that it was state title games and probably the best 12 officials in a very large state but when I see the same group of officials in this state do games the quality of officiating in comparison is obvious.
Keep in mind my travels with both of my kids on the AAU circuit and distances have been covered. I have seen many games and I know on that tour you get guys doing 4-5 or 6 games and they want to keep things moving as well. You can almost justify a referee in that situation but with a high school referee doing one game that will be done in a matter of an hour and 15 to an hour and 45 no matter what he calls the quality or type of calls made should not be so extreme. Unless they are just keeping the flow of the game going...

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The only real way.

Post  basketballtime on Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:33 pm

The only real way to you can try to get something done is by taking these actions.
Ask the referee or a league official for which officiating organization the referee works. Write this name down and any other information that comes with it.

2
Go to website for the National Association of Sports Officials and fill out a contact order form so you can get a list of local high school basketball associations in your area. They will send you information about how to contact your league office.

3
Write out your complaint in an email or in a hard copy. Do this in a professional manner, citing the exact calls you disagreed with and any evidence you have to support your complaint. Send the email to the officiating organization as well as any coaches or administrators at the high school, so they are aware the complaint was made. If you are sending a hard copy, note that you are sending the letter to the organization and to school administrators or coaches. Send photocopies to all parties who you want to see the complaint, so they can keep the information on file.



Read more: How to Level a Complaint Against High School Basketball Referees | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_7724551_level-high-school-basketball-referees.html#ixzz1FYPbSJu7

I do agree with ChiKid and Goldenbear on most of their thoughts and this really is a bigger issue even if some choose to ignore. I firmly believe when any game is being ruined by players who are deliberately taking advantage of poor officiating by grabbing,clutching or whatever they can get away with to slow a better player or players down is just flat out bad for the sport that is supposed to be regulated by the officials on the court/field. So if you really think anyones buying the theory that real fans of the game show up to watch that garbage well your just kidding yourselves or you have something to do with the officials involved. And like Goldenbear mentioned a lot of the officials have never even played the game and wouldn't understand the meaning flow of the game if it smacked them in the face. With that said there are some great ref's out there that really do know what they are doing and should be out there but the ones that shouldn't unfortunately are bringing the game down. I think all playoff games should be officiated by college officials. There is a reason why they are College officials and thats because they can officiate at that level so why not in the semi's and finals of the high school tournament? I would gaurantee every fan going to watch the games would chip in an extra buck or two to get them.

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Re: Officiating in March 1 Games/Flow of the Game

Post  JAF on Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:26 pm

re: ChiKid - which game with all the fouls. - I cannot remember for sure which opponent it was or I would have posted it. They all tend to blend together after a while. Calls were being made on both teams, but in the end it made no difference as BG was rolling. Parents/Fans from both sides were saying let them play. Obviously I heard more of those near me, but there were a few across the court as well. I also cannot dispute your contention about certain officials with reputations for what they call or don't call. And yes, that was in evidence the other night at BG.

re:Goldenbear - you say I contradict myself about adjusting; however, with 15 players on one side adjustment to the way the game is being called means you could have 30-45 fouls and no one has more than 2-3 per player. In a closer game those that were on the floor would have adjusted - I've seen it both ways. For all the fouls that were called in that game - I don't think anyone actually fouled out - although I'm not completely sure of that either.

re: basketballtime - I agree in general with your points, although I'm not sure if the complaint process outlined will weed out those that people feel aren't good officials. One thing I don't agree is "that much" blame should be leveled only at the officials. Coaches need to share this blame and need to control their players and style of play. At a recent meeting, one coach indicated he'd change the style of play for his team based on whether there were 2 or 3 officials on the court - what does that tell you?

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Re: Officiating in March 1 Games/Flow of the Game

Post  Tulliver on Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:27 pm

I question having college officials ref the tourney games.

First, there are different rules in college and college refs might really not perform "at their best" out of their "norm".

Secondly, I do have to wonder how players and coaches would perhaps have to respond to that factor, too.

Thirdly, just because some do not see what you see does not mean that they are "choosing to ignore" what you see. I'm not sure if you meant that to sound off putting, but to me it was. I am trying to understand why I do not see what you all see and report hearing. I was talking an hour ago to several veteran coaches (not all hoops) and each is well respected and do not feel that officiating is a serious problem. Yes, there are refs who need to develop... and if they're evaluated correctly there should be protocols to support that, but I still don't see the crisis situation that others do. I'm not choosing to ignore it.

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Post  chicagokid43 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:42 pm

re:Goldenbear - you say I contradict myself about adjusting; however, with 15 players on one side adjustment to the way the game is being called means you could have 30-45 fouls and no one has more than 2-3 per player. In a closer game those that were on the floor would have adjusted - I've seen it both ways. For all the fouls that were called in that game - I don't think anyone actually fouled out - although I'm not completely sure of that either.

If you called the lower of the two numbers say 30 fouls. You would send the That would send the team being fouled to the line 8 times with a chance of 16 foul shots per half. That is a chance to score 32 points off fouls. This also allows teams into that bonus earlier to be more aggressive going to the hoop. It also takes the players that are fouling that may also be the teams scorers off the floor taking away the offensive advantage also.

The other scenario not talked about is the culmination of all the fouls as the game wears on. If a team is able to foul and not get calls it wears on a player mentally as well as physically. If you are a guard who drives to the basket and you constantly fouled or rode all the way to the hoop without the call you wear down. If you get that call and are sent to the line you get a chance to breathe, collect your thoughts and continue play. If all of the contact is allowed it multiplies.


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Officiating Troubles

Post  boxout on Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:12 pm

I agree that officiating is bad in most high school basketball games. I continually see non-calls, and calls that never should have been. I use to get worked up about it years and years ago. Now I have accepted it, it is one area in my life that I have matured. Blaming officials has been going on since sports were invented. I have always agreed with the argument of the officials is doing a good job if you never hear their names after the announcements. But officiating is not worth getting upset about. I find that it all usually evens out. Some people on this board are completely biased when it comes to officiating. Hearing things like a crime was committed or the player was raped is a complete exaggeration. It is bad, but not nearly as bad as many portray it.
I agree with Chi-Kid and others who state that hand-checking has ruined the game. There should be no hand-checking period, remember as a rules, basketball is suppose to be a non-contact sport. You touch someone that is contact. Please don't get into the boxing out and all that stuff, contact is part of the game, but hand-checking is stopping a player from making a movement. I know the rule states you can't stop a player's progression, I just don't think it should be up to a ref to determine what progression is. I also have mentioned this on the board before about hand-checking. I also mentioned flopping, I see it all the time. What happened to the days of being able to draw an offensive foul without flopping? There gone. I actually had coaches who told me never to fall down. You stand your ground and don't reach in. I also see a lot of reaching in that doesn't get called.
But what bothers me most about officiating is that, and I've seen it on this board. It shouldn't be allowed that a referee can text message or use a cell phone to get scores of other games. That is wrong and should not be tolerated. Clearly if this is happening then the official's head is not completely into the game. If players are not texting and using cell phones, why should officials?

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Referees texting?

Post  chicagokid43 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:21 pm

Reeferees texting? You mean during the games?

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I may have...

Post  boxout on Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:44 pm

read posts wrong, but I took it as refs texting and getting scores of other games while officiating. I am probably wrong or misread it. But keep your eye out for it. I will as well.

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Re: Officiating in March 1 Games/Flow of the Game

Post  EBlessNHSP on Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:57 pm

I have never seen a referee use their cell phones during the course of a game. Although they do go into the lockerroom at halftime and could potentially do it there.

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Post  basketballtime on Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:05 pm

Weeding out would be nice and might be a stretch but it sure would be great to know they are on notice and people are watching. When it comes to College officials doing the playoffs i think it would be great to have them because it gives a higher level professionalism to the games being played while gettting rid of having the chance of a bias official doing a game they shouldn't be. In other words i know for a fact there are bias offficials that feel certain ways about certain teams,coaches or players. And that would nip that in the butt. I've heard officials blatantly say to players or coaches before that won't be happening next time i ref your game? I almost fell over and then realized that's just one of the many problems that are out there with some of these refs?


Last edited by The Assistant on Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:10 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Please refrain from the namecalling)

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Re: Officiating in March 1 Games/Flow of the Game

Post  goldenbear on Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:08 pm

HS refs do call college games and vise versa

I know one ref who is an administrator at a NH HS, who calls NH hs playoff games and regular season games along with college games.

I went to a few Riv games and I saw refs that I recognized from HS games.

The ref I know well is a good official, he did not play HS basketball but he calls the game tight and is not afraid to make the correct call at the big time. Some refs swallow the whistle at crunch time because they dont want to decide the game, but end up doing that by the no call, this refs does not do that he will make the call if it is the correct call.

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Re: Officiating in March 1 Games/Flow of the Game

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:40 pm

Good post G-Bear.

You know what's really funny? There are a lot of HS officials in this state that also do college games. Sometimes, in a HS playoff game with a 3 man crew, 2 out of the 3 and sometimes 3 of the 3 officials are college officials also. So, you have some people wanting "college officials" for the HS playoff games when in actuality they will be at a game or have been at a game which will have or have had 2 and sometimes 3 "college officials."

I find this very funny.

Thanks for pointing this out G-Bear.

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Re: Officiating in March 1 Games/Flow of the Game

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