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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:22 pm

Here you go. Complain to your heart's content. I'm sure the Executive Board at the IABBO offices would love to hear from you, ChiKid:


Tommy Lopes, Executive Director
email: tlopes@iaabo.org

Donnie Eppley, Admin Assistant to Executive Director
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Peter Webb, Coordinator of Interpreters
email: pawsports@aol.com


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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:47 pm

"You can actually draw a charge while turning or ducking?"

Yes sir. It all goes back to Principle of Verticality:


5. PRINCIPLE OF VERTICALITY. The committee is concerned that the principle
of verticality is not being applied consistently, especially in situations that involve
blocked shots. Verticality applies to a legal position. The following are the basic
components of the principle of verticality:
A. Legal guarding must be obtained initially and movement thereafter must
be legal.
B. For this position, the defender may rise or jump vertically and occupy the
space within his or her vertical plane.
C. The hands and arms of the defender may be raised within his/her vertical
plane while on the floor or in the air.
D. The defender should not be penalized for leaving the floor vertically or
having his/her hands and arms extended within his or her vertical plane.
E. The offensive player, whether on the floor or airborne, may not “clear out”
or cause contact within the defender’s vertical plane; this is a foul.
F. The defender may not “belly up” or use the lower part of the body or arms
to cause contact outside his or her vertical plane; this is a foul.
G. The player with the ball is to be given no more protection or consideration
than the defender in judging which player has violated the rules.
H. Misunderstanding of this rule generally results in the defensive player
being charged with a foul when actually his or her vertical plane has likely
been violated.

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They will not discuss calls or even use video to be enlightened.

Post  chicagokid43 on Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:06 pm

I tried that, since the NHIAA will not use video as a way of discussing calls it is not something you can prove. Makes sense since instant replay is not allowed in NHIAA events either.
It is still amazing to me that when my son asked why it was a block instead of a charge how often he is told you were moving.. or your feet weren't set,stationary.. I will always believe that many refs ignore the rules and call blocks out of habit. Just my two cents.

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:19 pm

That's a long 2 cents !!

I think with inflation you just gave a nickels worth.

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  JAF on Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:44 pm

I think for Mike the block/charge is a simple call - if Mikey is involved, then make sure he gets the call his way Shocked ...

It is a difficult call to make - as you can see by the letter of the law there's a lot of factors - say nothing of the speed of the game/play. Don't forget to consider whether shooter was airborne before some defender tried to "move into" his/her landing space. The other thing you have to consider, is the defender within his normal stance - legs about shoulder width apart. Seen a few defenders set that base really wide. For those same calls along the baseline - is the defenders foot out of bounds (that's a block). Are the arms really straight up and down within verticality? Let's face it not moving is not a normal reaction to someone just about to bowl you over - some players are very good at taking a charge.

What do you call if defender has the position, but just before contact starts falling backwards or self propels backwards? The parents, fans, coach of the defender all want charge. What do you think would happen if that player received a technical for an unsporting act? Try and sell that one! I've seen way too many not want to take a charge and then huff and pout when their Stanislofsky flop fails.


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Your begging for a youtube arent you?

Post  chicagokid43 on Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:33 pm

You are just begging me to show you the call aren't you? lol I still think there are guys out there who will not make the charge call no matter what. I actually tell my son before the game if he will get a charge call when I see certain guys. It is almost hilarious when you know by who the referee is if you will get the charge call. They read the same rule book and call the games so differently and I will always have an issue with that. Take it away T and F. lol

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:11 am

What am I, Calgon of the Forum? Take it away.

I know better than to get sucked into a referee argument with ChiKid. He is on THAT side of the fence and most times, 999 out of a thousand I am on THIS side of the fence. I do know a lot of referees, after they do a Milford game say, "Who the hell.........?" OK, we have to be nice on the Forum Twisted Evil

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lol I use to be so much worse

Post  chicagokid43 on Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:09 am

You guys are lucky now that I film most games I am much easier to deal with. I very rarely say anything at the games I save it for here. Mainly because I know it gets T and F's dander up.
lol Although when he puts out the referee call trivia he is opening up a can...

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:18 am

No opening up of cans here. It's trying to get you to understand the rules better and the interpretation of them.

A lot of people still think the defender has to make a reservation and sit still for 30 seconds before drawing a charge. That's the way it used to be, but it's not any more. This is why I showed the legal guarding position and all the rules that go with it. People will get a better understanding of where the rulings are coming from.

And if ChiKid refuses to follow the rules and the interpretations of them then I guess we should watch out in the grocery store because you too could be stuck behind ChiKid when he has 18 items on the cashiers' conveyer belt in the 10 items or less aisle Very Happy

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  JT_nh_hs_fan on Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:28 am

T&F,

Thanks for your posting on the rules, but despite the committee's very real misgivings on the subject of verticality, we all know the reality is offensive players are taught to initiate and create contact BECAUSE officials do make that call in favor of the offensive player despite the rule! This is true at every level of the game.

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I have been here for 20 years...

Post  chicagokid43 on Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:35 am

I have been here for 20 years and I have never seen a defensive player get a charge call called on a offensive player when both were airborne that is a fact. Never seen it

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  JT_nh_hs_fan on Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:53 am

It is more than not getting the offensive foul call, most officials call the foul on the defender even for extremely minimal contact. I get upset about it because officials are penalizing the defender for following the rules. Seriously how many times in any game do you see a defender straight up but the o-player makes some contact and gets the call? I see it a lot in every game from a Class S/Div. 4 game here to a Celts game and at every level in between. You even hear the "experts" on TV talk about how good a player is at creating contact and finishing on his drives to the hoop. I would prefer that the rules get changed to reflect the reality of the game than see year after year league officials cry out how certain things are going to be called correctly this year then fail to carry though on that claim. (i.e. - a few years ago here in NH when they made a big deal about calling hand checks and by the Christmas tourneys, it was back to normal).

I do agree with you, I have seen what you described called correctly only a couple of times, but only when you had a really obvious call where the o-player dipped his shoulder and drove through the defender much like a running back. Other than that, you are right, if the defender is in the air, it is his foul- period. A great number of NH officials call it that way - rules or not.

Speaking of a blown call, did you see the game winning shot in the Tennessee game the other night - LOL, no over the back on that one huh?????

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JT I suspect

Post  chicagokid43 on Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:06 am

I suspect T and F to get on in the morning and say their was no box out so their can be no over the back... but yeah I thought over the back was missed also.

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:40 pm

ChiKid, "20 years and you've never seen it?" I've seen it 3 times in the last week. We must be hanging around different gyms or when it does happen at your games you must be placing a take out order at Papa Joe's.

I respectively disagree with you and JT-NH. There has been a significant increase in the charge call in the last couple of years. It used to be every benefit went to the offender as opposed to the defender in the block/charge call. There has been a keen awareness of refereeing the defense along with the offense. I see a lot of defenders receiving the benefit of legal guarding position and moving obliquely in relation to the offender when a charge is called.

c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it
is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

I think there has been a good deal of emphasis placed on the defensive standpoint and it has benefitted defenders and team defenses over the last few years.

Have you checked out the HS basketball scores lately? Exactly.


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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:50 pm

No games, but plenty of snow.

Here we go:

The score of the game is tied at the end of regulation. During the OT period, the official scorer informs the referee that the Red Team had an additional point in the 4th quarter that was not counted. The referee reviews the scorebook and recognizes where a point was not properly credited to the Red Team.

What ruling takes place next?

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All Score Changes

Post  chicagokid43 on Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:07 pm

If I am not mistaken all score changes must be noted by end of the period in which the mistake happens. The score remains as it was at the beginning of the overtime.

I would absolutely love to see video of a charge call of a player when his defender was in the air. I would never believe that unless you had video proof. Seriously...

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:24 pm

Sort of right and sort of wrong.

The referee adds the point to the Red Team's score in OT. The game continues to it's completion in OT.

I don't have a video camera surgically attached to me like some people in Manchester, Marlow and MILFORD. You'll just have to trust my visual evidence and ensuing mind retention on this one:

3 charges I have seen in the last week where the offender and defender were up in the air and the offender CREATED the contact by invading the space of the defender and displaced him.

Funny how some people haven't seen it in 20 years while others have seen it 3 times in the last 7 days.

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  JT_nh_hs_fan on Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:31 pm

T&F,

My point was more about the under the basket play, not so much the situation where a player is being guarded and the defender is moving with him.

Perhaps we need to clarify the terms just a bit, I believe there are two situations we may be melding into one. There is the offensive foul call and the "charge" call. To me, the "charge" is the situatuion where a player is attempting to get in front of the offensive player and "take the hit". It is also the one that I beleive gets very dangerous when officials allow defenders to be reworded with a call when they do this after the o-player has already committed to the air. If the defender is there in postion and stationary, it is a "charge". I sincerely hope the language you are talking about (legal guarding position and moving obliquely in relation to the offender) is not being applied to this one. That will lead to many, many more undercut plays.

I hope and believe your application is more to the play of guarding a player who is dribbling the ball.

I regard to your seeing 3 times, i am glad. That is good, BUT how many times in those 7 days did you see the same play either no-called, or called on the defender. Seeing it 3 times does not make me believe there has been a significant shift in the way that play is called.


"3 charges I have seen in the last week where the offender and defender were up in the air and the offender CREATED the contact by invading the space of the defender and displaced him."

Was this a plow-through job, such as the ones I have seen, or the more commonly seen play where the contact is there, but not like a football play?


Last edited by JT_nh_hs_fan on Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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No Video no Proof!

Post  chicagokid43 on Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:35 pm

Not saying I don't believe you just saying if I didn't see it... it didn't happen! lol Do you know the name of the referee that made that call. I say we immediately elevate him to Varsity Boys because that is the games I watch and it does not get called there... Maybe the best refs are in JV..

Last night Milford had the one and only Moe B reffing for them. Interestingly enough he did a fine job and actually called the game closer than his reputation would expect. He also complained of a pulled groin at halftime so maybe he needed the calls to keep up. lol

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I thought we were talking about at the hoop as well.

Post  chicagokid43 on Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:37 pm

I thought we were talking about around the basket also. I can show you at least 20 from last year on one player where players jumped into him and he got the block but was called with the body contact. It happens to Kyle Nelson twice a game.

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  basketballtime on Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:20 pm

Tuesday and Friday wrote:ChiKid, "20 years and you've never seen it?" I've seen it 3 times in the last week. We must be hanging around different gyms or when it does happen at your games you must be placing a take out order at Papa Joe's.

I respectively disagree with you and JT-NH. There has been a significant increase in the charge call in the last couple of years. It used to be every benefit went to the offender as opposed to the defender in the block/charge call. There has been a keen awareness of refereeing the defense along with the offense. I see a lot of defenders receiving the benefit of legal guarding position and moving obliquely in relation to the offender when a charge is called.

c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it
is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

I think there has been a good deal of emphasis placed on the defensive standpoint and it has benefitted defenders and team defenses over the last few years.

Have you checked out the HS basketball scores lately? Exactly.


I don't quite agree with the whole defensive standpoint of it? For me i think it has more to do with lack of good sized and talented players getting easier shots from a few feet away. Plus you see everyone jacking up three's every chance they get instead of stepping in a few more feet for an easier shot. Not to mention the hand checking,grabbing and so on that goes on has really turned the game into more of a boring game if you ask me. I look at a team like Milford and they have a nice balance of everything which makes them a high scoring team. You have Nelson who can get easy layups by sitting under the basket waiting for a pass or cleaning up a missed layup of a drive from O'laughlin, Holder or Mitchell. They get a lot of easy baskets because they can do a little bit of everything.They also can fast break better than any other team out there by far. As far as you saying Mr Mitchell bringing up 18 items to a 10 item line i guess you could also say what if your the guy making that call on that play and fouling Mr Mitchell out his line so that he can no longer eat or drink for the rest of the week, but then he goes back home and you tubes your horrible call because the video clearly shows that he was in a 20 or less item line? I guess that's the point here, there are a lot of things you see officials calling or not calling out there on the court while watching the game that you just shake your head and say oh no its this ref again calling the game. affraid I think it would be a smart idea for the head of officials to video some of the games and help out some of the refs with the calls that they seem to be consistently getting wrong. Just a thought but i think that would be a great way of helping them and making the games better?

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  NHsportsfan on Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:45 pm

What I still see too much of is the charge call with the defender being almost under the basket. I would love to see the half circle implemented. I think the hardest call for a ref to make is the one where the defender is covering the ball and tries to beat them laterally to a spot. The benefit of the doubt usually goes to the offensive player which seems to make sense because for a defender to actually beat them to a spot and get set seems almost impossible to do. As far a a player jumping in to draw contact the issue with the defender is that his weight is forward which 9 out of 10 times puts his arms out and over instead of up straight.(God do players and fans cry about this and they are wrong)

The one question I have that I have not seen called forever is the fake flop when trying to draw a charge which is suppose to be a T. That seems to happen at least once or twice a game and we never see the T.

T and F very curious why that is?

In the past few years I have started to officiate (football) and now have great appreciation for all officials. There's all types of officials out there but I would have to say over 90% take the job seriously and try to make the right call.(if you asked me before I began I would have said 50%) The most surprising thing to me is the most complaining I hear while on the field is complaining about something that is not even valid (fan, coach or player not knowing the correct rule) or something that happened right in front of the official and the complaint is coming from 50 yards away. I laugh to myself and realize that they are just excited about the game or are just pulling for their team and caught up in their emotion. I also realized some people are just going to complain about everything anyway, the one call that was missed and so on...


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The officials in High School

Post  chicagokid43 on Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:14 pm

The officials in high school are not ready to look for a circle and contact.

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The flop

Post  basketballtime on Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:07 pm

NHsportsfan, So here i am watching the Celts game and what happens? The Flop comes out of nowhere. Ray Allen was chasing Raja Bell under the basket and bell takes off and then stops on a dime and turns back into Allen and then propells himself off Allen like he was just hit with two sticks of C4. Not only did the ref give Allen the foul but he looked clueless while doing so. It should have been a foul on Bell and a Tech for the flop. NBA refs are so bad. Makes you wonder if they bet on the game he he. scratch

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  basketballtime on Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:13 pm

basketballtime wrote:NHsportsfan, So here i am watching the Celts game and what happens? The Flop comes out of nowhere. Ray Allen was chasing Raja Bell under the basket and bell takes off and then stops on a dime and turns back into Allen and then propells himself off Allen like he was just hit with two sticks of C4. Not only did the ref give Allen the foul but he looked clueless while doing so. It should have been a foul on Bell and a Tech for the flop. NBA refs are so bad. Makes you wonder if they bet on the game he he. scratch

Very funny Bell just flopped again and Heinson went nuts. He said that's twice!!! twice he's flopped and he's getting away with it. Geesh NHsportsfan good call on the flop tonight you wouldn't happen to know the powerball numbers for Saturday would you Question

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

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