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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:41 pm

The 3 charges I saw were 4 to 6 feet from the basket on drives to the hoop. In all 3 the offensive person leaned forward in the air on a defender and displaced the defender backwards. 2 happened in a varsity game and 1 happened in a JV game.

JT-NH - The "moving obliquely" reference wasn't for plays near the hoop. It is more for when the defender is guarding say 15 to 30 feet from the hoop and the defender has legal guarding position and is moving obliquely with the offender and the offender leans forward and pushes/charges the defender backwards. Again, there is a certain number of fans out there that still think the defender has to be still to draw a foul on this play. When this charge/push happens you will sometimes hear a fan yell out, "he was moving." That fan is partially correct. If that fan yelled out, "He was moving obliquely," then he would be correct, but then if the fan knew that he would understand the call and wouldn't yell out in the first place.

As far as the flop is concerned. Some officials just won't give the defender the call and let the situation play on. Others will warn the defender an unsporting technical is in the future if it continues. For most referees the technical is the last resort.

Common sense and diffusing is a better option than a hasty decision with exacerbation.

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IF we really want to debate?

Post  chicagokid43 on Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:41 pm

If we really want to have some fun debating calls I will do a video clip and stop it.. we can all make the call and see who gets it right? Anyone game?

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  JT_nh_hs_fan on Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:20 am

"As far as the flop is concerned. Some officials just won't give the defender the call and let the situation play on. Others will warn the defender an unsporting technical is in the future if it continues. For most referees the technical is the last resort. "

This is one of the things that bugs me the most about officials. You want to stop a particular behavior on the court - MAKE THE CALL!!! These are not 4th graders who need to be "warned"!

As far as the situation your describing goes, this is why officials think they can make their own decisions on interperating the rule book. It is why you can tell your team how the calls will generally go when you see a particular offical is doing your game (same thing happens in baseball with umpres establishing "their" strike zone Vs calling the one in the rule book). It is not up to you as an official to determine what rules to enforce and what rules to "warn" or not call. It is this inconsistency that aggravates players, coaches and fans. This also is a big factor in leading to variations in calls during a game. Officals believe they can decide when a foul is really a foul worth calling. Bad Idea.

If a player has in your view taken a flop and your warning him without calling a foul on him - you have already failed as an official and he knows it.


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99% of charges are flops... techincally

Post  chicagokid43 on Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:29 am

Technically you teach a player to relax and give way to draw a charge it is part of the game. You are not suppose to stiffen up and take a blow full tilt with weight forward. Any referee that expects a player to try to combat a player who is aggressively attacking the hoop by trying to stop him is just kidding themselves. You try to get square and relax and take the hit. Some refs take that as a flop. You do not have to try and be an offensive lineman you just have to get there first and be moved off of your spot. Flopping is when you fall back in hopes of getting a call. That happens when a player midway through the play gets nervous of the hit and leans away.. that is not faking it that is running out of courage.. there is a difference. Faking a charge or a call is when you over react or try to act like contact that was not there... there is a huge difference.

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:31 am

"If a player has in your view taken a flop and your warning him without calling a foul on him - you have already failed as an official and he knows it."

JT-NH, Giving out technicals isn't like giving away candy canes at Christmas time. Like I said common sense goes a long way. I don't think an official is failing when using common sense.

I like NH Sportsfan's take on how he has a much better appreciation of officials after becoming one in football.




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Wait a minute...

Post  chicagokid43 on Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:43 am

So if a referee warns a player of a infraction... then calls it the second time... did he miss the first call or just decide to not call it yet? I do not think a referee should be able to tell a player to not reach or Hands off... or dont flop... if that is what he saw should he not call it the first time? Is it up to him to correct the players habits or should he just call the game. This is a fine line here. I think the right rule would be to call the infraction the first time and if the player questions him.. explain the call. Do not instruct call the game is my opinion. I guess if your doing a 4th or 5th grade travel game or rec game.. sure correct and teach but in a high school game you do not know if a coach wants a player to hold or play physical or even if he is trying to foul. So you not making a call is not your right.. your job is to call the game. Right?

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Sounds more like an excuse to me.

Post  basketballtime on Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:58 am

Chikid is correct your not out there to teach a high school player that he shouldn't flop or grab or hack or stick out a leg and so on your there to make calls. Or for that matter argue with the ref over a call. I see that more often as being a missed call more than anything.

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Your Side T and F...

Post  chicagokid43 on Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:02 am

What is the purpose of the warning? Why do you think a referee should tell a player those instructions? I am trying to look at it through a striped shirt. Am I suppose to assume you know if the coach has instructed a player to foul? Are you assuming the player is not trying to foul? Are you assuming that the player being fouled initially will not do things differently next time because he does not think you will make the call? Is the offensive player suppose to adapt then? Should he think you will call any reach or bump after he hears your warning? Now all of us are confused.... right?

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:06 am

Yes, call the game and use common sense. Look, the original intent of this thread was to go over unique situations in basketball games. Somehow, it has turned into a discussion of calls in games and what referees should or shouldn't do.

So, on that note, it's back to unique basketball situations and their rulings:

A game goes into OT. The referee informs the timer to put 5 minutes on the clock for OT. 15 seconds goes by in the OT and the scoreboard operator says it is a mistake and the OT should be 4 minutes.

What is the ruling?

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Striped man waving white flag seen in Southern NH.

Post  chicagokid43 on Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:09 am

Striped man waving white flag seen in Southern NH... I believe you need to answer the charges mister! lol

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Changes in the clock

Post  chicagokid43 on Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:14 am

I do not think you can make a change to the clock without proof of exactly what time ran off... so being that you do know that you ran 15 off.... I have no idea but if you made the calls in the game consistently I doubt we would be in overtime the best team would have already won! lol

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  JT_nh_hs_fan on Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:37 am

"JT-NH, Giving out technicals isn't like giving away candy canes at Christmas time. Like I said common sense goes a long way. I don't think an official is failing when using common sense."


I completely understand your candy reference, but I would respectfully suggest that the someone submit a rewrite in the rule then. Deciding to ignore a rule and re-enforcing behavior that is defined in the rule as wrong is not common sense either.

I would rather see a few candy Ts handed out if it would cut down on these foolish flop plays. Imagine how many times a game you would have players slamming the ball when they ar eupset if they knew all they were going to get was a warning first. They know full well if they do it, they are going to get a the T.

In fact, not consistently calling the game correctly it is what leads to these problems in the first place. Coaches realizing that officials wont make a call and getting their players to push the envelope. That is what all good coaches do. I guarantee Chikid and others who have had kids play AAU or attend high end camps can tell you all kinds of stories about how players are taught to push those fine lines. Ignoring the rules in favor of someone's view of common sense is not good for the game in the long run.

I will give you an example of this from a college game I attended 2 weeks ago. Players A & B are lined up next to each other on the lane on a free throw. Player A leans into B before the shot - he is not just making contact, but leaning well into B's slot. This happens on 3 consectutive free throw attempts. An official "warns" A. The behavior continues within 2 minutes and another warning from the same official. Finally Player B retaliates and the official calls a double T. Not common sense - Bad Officiating. Player B takes matters into his own hands because the official refused to. I was in the 2nd row and claerly heard Player B ask the official how many more warnings A was going to get. Player B is incensed as is his coach and obviously the fans are not thrilled. Now if the official would simply have called a foul when it first occurred - My bet is that there would be a better chance of getting the desired result than hoping a warning would work.

I see this a lot in HS and college where making a call would allow better control. Warnings typically lead to a call being made later anyway. You see this a lot with low post play grabbing, holding, pushing, etc and some with things like hand checks. It is as if the official actually thinks that by warning a player that it will cause that player to play the game differently. Players are going to follow what they have been taught and coached to do. If they stop doing what the coach wants - they find a seat on the bench.

I do have a very valid question for any patched official. Team A is hand-checking from the opening whistle to the the final buzzer - every possesion. How many fouls for hand checking will you call? How much will you allow them to get away with. After you have given warnings and it continues, will you blow the whistle on each possesion if it persists?


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Why is so hard to answer?

Post  basketballtime on Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:25 am

Somehow, it has turned into a discussion of calls in games and what referees should or shouldn't do.

These are all valid points and questions so why not answer them? I think two things that i respect the most when i see a great ref is how often they get it right and the ability to communitcate with everyone even if it means saying i got that one wrong. To me that is all the players and coaches ask for. But when you get refs that have attitudes and have that i just don't care attitude going on it takes away from the game and quite frankly is waste of everybody's time. I don't know if that can be taught or not but i wish it would be implemented in the training of the refs and maybe it is but it sure isn't be used much if so. Like i said yesterday with having refs being video taped and learning how to become better at what they are doing and then adding the communitcation aspect of it then i believe you could have a much better system and much better refs out there which in turn means much better games.

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  JAF on Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:04 am

The referee is in a no win situation - call "everything" and the game takes way too long to complete and people complain that he/she is trying to be "part of the game"... C'mon ref let the boys/girls play is the common refrain. The upside or downside depending on how you look at it is - you'll quickly be testing the depth of the bench, but you'll also be having many free throws. Maybe change the bonus to only be on the 10th foul and then you'll start to see those "ticky-tack" fouls called. If you don't call enough - then you have the other problem - C'mon ref they're killing each other out there and Mike is spending his time posting videos on you-tube. In the end you have to determine in a split second whether the action caused displacement or provided an advantage for one player over the other.

In the end - a warning is a common sense tool. The player doesn't exhibit common sense and heed the warning, then sure something should be called. Calling a "T" on a player has other ramifications - referees will get reputations like umpires for the "quick temper". So again, you're in a no win situation. Besides if it's the players second, then you get to write an ejection report.

One thing I will agree with in an earlier comment - it's the AAU games and tourneys where you "learn" to put the whistle away. I remember going as a parent and being shocked over the level of contact allowed. But then you learn over time it's all about the money - the more teams that show up at tourneys the more money made. If you have only 60-75 minutes to play a game, then something has to give....

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There we go with that advantage word

Post  chicagokid43 on Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:12 pm

Show me that in the rulebook on every call.... The rule book does not talk about advantage being part of the reasoning on making a call. Does it? I mean if player A is so much stronger than player B and the slap or hold doesn't effect the play.. is there no foul? If that is the case we would never have an and one situation or the old fashioned three pointer. It seems that more than just me think the refs these days worry about game flow,advantage gained and length of games more so that even THEY want to admit. I do not think they want to admit that if the called the calls based on the book the games may take a few minutes longer but the offense would be more effective,the games would eventually become cleaner and the game would be fair to both teams in the process. I think this is clearly what the fans,players and coaches would like to see. Fact is the more talented you are offensively the better off you are in a game unless the game is called allowing more contact,warnings and the play on no advantage mentality. There is a rule book, there are guidelines in place. Do not chose when to use them as every play can be a deciding play and every non call gives advantage. If a player is getting an advantage the playing field is not longer level ground.

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Look at the other sports

Post  basketballtime on Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:05 pm

The NBA,NHL and the NFL have taken major steps to inforce the rules inplace because the games were getting worse not better. In the NBA they started clamping down on many rule such as hand checking then followed the forearm and they even tried to curve palming to no avail. And then implementing clear path fouls and so on. The NHL changed the holding and grabbing rules as well becuase it was slowing down the game and making the game worse. the NFL has also followed suit and has been cracking down on many things. So what is it that people come to see when they go to a game? A hacker who doesn't move their feet and plays dirty and quite frankly doesn't even belong on the court in the first place. Or do we go to game to see great players perform their magical skills that they have worked on for many years? So let me ask you all who is charge of all of that? Officials can either chose to let some great basketball go on or they can chose garbage ball. I for one would chose to go to a NBA game or a high school game and see the talent play wouldn't you? It's not hard to watch a game in high school and pick out the players that are cheating the system in fact it's very easy and thats where i feel the ref's could easily make a difference by cleaning up that type a player by assesing fouls correctly and keeping the game under control all at the same time. I personally would think a ref would do that anyways because they would look like they know what their doing out there on the floor by doing that anyways right?

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"taking" a technical foul

Post  Thomas on Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:07 pm

The practice of "taking" a technical foul by a coach if used judiciously is an effective strategic move and can be used by a coach to his advantage. I have seen huge foul and violation discrepancies evaporate after a technical foul was given to a coach. The coach must guard against getting the second technical and realize that once one is given the "lobbying" of the refs pretty much has to stop. "Taking" a technical foul can go a long way towards rallying the troops into an "us vs. them" mentality, causing the coaches team to play harder and with more purpose.

Also, I think that the fact that a technical foul was given or taken means clearly that whether they like it or not the officials have either made some incorrect calls, lost control of the game, or both. I have seen instances of when technical fouls are given it causes officials to improve their work, for lack of a better term.

With all of this said, and having no knowledge of future situations, I would think that this practice should only be utilized a couple of times a season. Most of the time the flow of a tight game does not dictate allowing the opponent an extra scoring opportunity. A guy I know who has been coaching for 20 years told me he "took" a technical once when he wasn't even upset with the officiating - he used it as a psychological move to motivate his team.

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  EBlessNHSP on Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:14 pm

Hey T&F do coaches still have to sit down the remainder of the game after receiving their first technical? Always thought that was a weird rule...is it practiced elsewhere?

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:39 pm

Yes, Asst. When a coach or any bench personnel receive a technical the head coach has to sit for a remainder of the game. In actuality it protects the head coach from himself. Sitting down the rest of the game is a reminder to the coach that if he receives another technical then he is removed from the game.

If a player dunks or grabs the rim needlessly in warmups, which is illegal, the player is assessed a technical which goes as an indirect technical to the head coach and he has to sit for 32 minutes. The game starts with 2 technical FTs by the team that didn't violate and they take the ball out at the division line opposite the scorer's table to start the game. There is no center tap. The technical assessed to the dunking/grabbing rim player also counts as his first personal foul and the first team foul to his team. I heard this actually happened at a D1 boy's game about 2 weeks ago.

Seeing that most states follow the NHFS rules then I would think this sitting after the 1st technical would be the case in most HS games played in the USA.

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What a stupid rule?

Post  basketballtime on Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:37 pm

Why is dunking in warmup a tech in the first place? Is it a shot that is not allowed in a game? For me if someone can dunk then why not warm it up? I understand if someones hanging on the rim like an idiot but you could easily make the rule change by stating that if you hang onto the rim then you get t'd up.

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:43 pm

Here's the information to get the ball rolling on your proposed rule change, B-balltime:



Tommy Lopes, Executive Director
email: tlopes@iaabo.org

Donnie Eppley, Admin Assistant to Executive Director
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Peter Webb, Coordinator of Interpreters
email: pawsports@aol.com


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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  EBlessNHSP on Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:56 am

This might deserve an explanation. I think this happened in Maine.

I'm assuming no kick b/c there was no intent by the defender.


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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:52 pm

I watched it a couple of times in slow motion and there was no kick. The ball looked like it bounced on the floor first, deflected off the upper arm of Blue #15 and went in the basket. Perfectly legal play. The ball was legally touched on the inbound pass.

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  EBlessNHSP on Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:01 pm

haha you're right...I guess that's why you're the rulebook expert and I'm just some guy behind a computer.

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:04 pm

I actually live for making the game of basketball more clear for some one like you, Asst.

Now, ChiKid on the other hand...............

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Re: Unique Basketball Situations

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