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Pembroke Part II

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Pembroke Part II

Post  manchfan on Wed May 07, 2014 12:43 pm

Timbas ineligible

NHIAA strikes another blow to Pembroke.   Shocked

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Pembroke Part II

Post  NHRamFan on Wed May 07, 2014 4:10 pm

Can you elaborate? Is it related to academics? He was eligible and played this past winter. If not academic in nature, what has now surfaced that wasn't known before the 13/14 season?

Inquiring minds want to know!!

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Pembroke Part II

Post  NHRamFan on Wed May 07, 2014 4:12 pm

Nevermind....didn't realize it was linked to a story!!

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Re: Pembroke Part II

Post  Hooper on Wed May 07, 2014 7:40 pm

Totally Baffled by this article scratch 

It would appear Jamie Timbas is going to battle for his sons eligibility. But if they don't have a schedule next year what does it matter? They must be getting a schedule or why would Dom petition? But Tim Powers seems to be saying no movement has occurred.
 scratch 
Has to be more to the story.

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Pembroke Part II

Post  tiger46 on Wed May 07, 2014 8:02 pm

I think this might be the straw that breaks the NHIAA’s back.  No way that this ruling doesn’t go to court.  Even if the NHIAA wins, the rule will almost certainly get changed. The NHIAA has opened themselves up to constant litigation if they try to enforce the Timbas case.  With this decision, it seems to me, that the NHIAA will have to pursue any and all athletes who repeat the 8th grade going forward.  If they don’t, why Timbas? Witch hunt?  If they do, how will they handle all of the cases?  I personally know of six kids who have repeated or will repeat 8th grade this year or next.  How many more are out there?  Will the NHIAA add enforcement officers to handle the workload? To keep from being charged with selective enforcement, they will have to hunt down and penalize every single kid who repeats 8th grade.  What if you are held back in 7th grade or 6th? Is that okay? The letter of the rule says it is but, it is still to gain athletic advantage. In addition, if an athlete does repeat, the NHIAA will have no choice but to deny a senior year of eligibility. With the schools just shuffling kids along these days – it will always be a parent’s decision to hold him back, which will then be interpreted as red shirting.  This is a no win for the NHIAA.  They could have 10 or more lawsuits each year.  

On the transfer front the NHIAA is facing a similar battle.  With more and more schools taking in tuition students to offset declining enrolment, the transfer rule comes under fire.  For instance, on the Bedford High School website they are advertising (could be interpreted as recruiting) for tuition students.  This is one of the most affluent towns in the state (a clear academic advantage).  What if the best players in Manchester choose to transfer there?  Should they be excluded from sports?  If so, they are not getting full value if they are denied certain extracurricular activities?  Should the school districts turn down potential revenue by not accepting athletes? Tough decision, when as few as four transfer students could offset a teacher’s salary and keep him/her on staff.
The landscape has changed from the time when these rules were written.  For this generation “Be true to your school” is just an old Beach Boys song. If I am a parent, and I think my child will be better off at school X than school Y, why shouldn’t I send him/her?  If they are a student in good standing, why should they be denied access to sports? Because the NHIAA says it is not a level playing field?  We have never had a level playing field in this state?  In the 18 years that these seniors have been alive only eight teams have won a D1/Class L basketball championship. One of those eight was the combined Nashua High Schools. I find it ironic that the D1 Athletic Directors Association refused to schedule Pembroke but schedules Pinkerton. With an enrollment of 3500, the field tips anytime Pinkerton gets off the bus. By the way Pinkerton takes tuition students. This is not a knock on Pinkerton they can’t help it if they are 50% larger than any other school, just an example.  

I don’t believe that students transferring or being held back is the true problem with regard to competitive balance. Those decisions will be made for a thousand reasons, sports included. As I see it, the problem the NHIAA faces is outright recruiting.  If I want my kid to go play for a coach who I think will give him a better chance at a scholarship, I should be able to send him.  But, if a coach or an AAU program is funneling my kid to a specific school then the NHIAA should intervene.  Today all of the punishments are against kids who are committed to chasing a dream. Some here will argue that their parents should know better.  Maybe they should, but this country was built by dreamers and the people who backed them.  In the PA case, many of the affected kids did nothing wrong at all.
The NHIAA should go after the school districts.  There is no penalty for the coach, AD, or principle in this case.  They all will continue in their current roles regardless of whether they play a single game against a NH school this season or not. The rule should be changed to allow the NHIAA to fine the school.  Nothing will stop the recruiting faster than a superintendent being told he has to pay a fine for a rogue coach. If the NHIAA doesn’t have the authority or stomach to go after the recruiters, then I think, they should leave the recruited alone.

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Re: Pembroke Part II

Post  FormerFalcoln on Wed May 07, 2014 9:07 pm

At Tiger - I can address a couple of issues that may or may not provide clarity. The NHIAA has no enforcement officers. The enforcement officers for Pembroke are the Athletic Director and the Principal. The NHIAA is self policing at the building level. The NHIAA IS the oversight for member schools. This is not as much a transfer issue as much as it is an issue of the transfer was not done or documented correctly by Pembroke when Timbas transferred in. PA is obligated to have a copy of the homeschool plan upon his transfer. My guess, and this is only a guess, is that they failed to provide that plan upon the request for the added year. Now, the reason he needs to apply for the extra year of eligibility is that he will exceed the age limit for high school participation per the NHIAA bylaws. So, as I see it with my history with the NHIAA, knowing the ins and outs, this comes down to a serious administrative snafu on the part of the PA administration and thier record keeping and thier documentation. As for who will be held responsible, I think this is the final straw for AD Klink. She has to be held acountable on this and in my experience with the NHIAA the only denials for extended eligibility usually comes down to the failure to follow protocols and procedures, the person in charge of enforcing policy and procedure for the NHIAA at Pembroke is AD Klink.

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Re: Pembroke Part II

Post  FormerFalcoln on Wed May 07, 2014 9:11 pm

At Hooper - no PA is not getting a schedule. Timbas wants the year because he is exceeding the age cut off for the NHIAA. He needs that waiver if he wants to play anywhere at any NHIAA school. My feeling is that the parents had no idea what they needed to do when they kept thier son back. Nobody with the policy knowledge, advised them back then on how or what to do.

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Re: Pembroke Part II

Post  FormerFalcoln on Wed May 07, 2014 9:27 pm

When you homeschool a student, you. Need to provide the school you are enrobing in with a copy of the approved homeschool plan submitted to the NH DOE. If you do not do that, then the NHIAA has to use the last school of record, in this case Bedford, as his grade 8, not the homeschool. Year as there is no record. I dealt with homeschool athletes in the early 90s as a coach, and our AD had to have a copy of the homeschool plan before they would submit the transfer waiver, so I am thinking (this is a guess, no other basis than the article and my own experience with this) that the family did not provide a homeschool plan to PA, they did not make PA aware of the homeschool year until now, or PA did not provide the proper procedures or documentation to the NHIAA. This is just a guess not knowing if the family diff or did not provide PA with the documentation.

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Pembroke Part II

Post  tiger46 on Wed May 07, 2014 10:29 pm

At FormerFalcon
Maybe you know of this situation first hand but, nowhere in the Monitor article did it say anything about exceeding the age limit.  Exact quote follows:

Corbin cited NHIAA bylaws that say an athlete is permitted eight semesters of high school sports eligibility after completing eighth grade.
Timbas finished eighth grade at Lurgio Middle School in Bedford, then repeated the grade in a home-school program in Penacook.
That, Corbin said in his letter, amounted to redshirting

This suggests that once a player finishes 8th grade the clock starts running.  Do you read it some other way because it seems pretty clear?  
Additionally, I agree that the NHIAA has no enforcement officers however, the Monitor article stated the following.  Exact quote follows:

Corbin, who made the decision by himself, apparently thought Timbas repeated eighth grade to gain an advantage athletically, not to help him mature and grow emotionally, as the letter from Reardon had said.

Will he be reviewing every case where an 8th grader repeats and is he the judge for the validity of the request?  Did he interview the parents? I don’t think so.  At least in this case Mr. Corbin is the enforcement officer.  What am I missing?

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Re: Pembroke Part II

Post  bigkidsdad on Thu May 08, 2014 3:00 am

What is the age cutoff to compete in the NHIAA for seniors as my son will turn eighteen his senior year.He has been in the same district since sixth grade.

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Re: Pembroke Part II

Post  FormerFalcoln on Thu May 08, 2014 6:50 am

I do not know of the situation other than the article. The NHIAA requires a waiver for eligibility if you will turn 19 during the school year. I now the article does not say he will exceed the age limit, but that is typically the only reason you need an added year eligibility waiver. Otherwise, if he has only played 3 years, he would be eligible. Seniors who turn 18 during the school year are fine as long as they are within the 8 semester rule for eligibility. Again, as I said in my previous posts, I am guessing here but - he probably turns 19 this year before graduation, needed the waiver, applied, then the NHIAA realized there was a homeschool year from the letter the parents provided, ,but no homeschool record was on file with the school, NHIAA, or DOE. Thus, the NHIAA bylaw of 8 semesters after 8th grade is the basis for the denial, as Bedford becomes the last school of record. This is my guess. As to Corbin making the decision himself, yes, in this case he is the final say on the issue of the extra year of eligibility. The rule is designed to prevent hold backs in the 8th or 9th grade for competitive advantage by athletes. The 8 semester rule has been in place for over 30 years, and jprobably longer than that. Again, I stopped coaching in 1994 and the rule was in place for the 18 years I coached here in NH.

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Re: Pembroke Part II

Post  Hooper on Thu May 08, 2014 7:13 am

It would seem that Pat Corbin has really contradicted himself with the rule book.
Again I say there has to be more we don't know scratch 

The eligibility handbook states

Sect. 3: Semester Rule
A student is eligible for competition, whether or not he
/she competes in interscholastic athletics, for no
more than eight (Cool consecutive semesters beyond the
eighth grade

That's the rule.  

Furthermore:

In the checklist for Student Eligibility  there is this

3. I have not been enrolled
in more than eight consecutive semesters high school
immediately following gr
grade 8 (grades 9-12).

It would appear that whether he did it to "Redshirt" or not is immaterial.  Though Red shirting is mentioned in rationale, these rules do not prevent the Timbas's from doing what they did.

This is clearly a vendetta, I cannot think of one time this has been enforced in such a way.   With the amount of boy's that have done the "Homeschooling" route.  

Dom Timbas is not too old, he has not been in high school too long.  He is doing exactly what all the boy's at Trinity have done, Half of BG's team.  


I think it would be best to avoid names if possible but I can think of one D1 high school who just got a major transfer from Prep who "Red-shirted"  I

This is either a Vendetta or a huge can of worms Pat Corbin has decided to open on the way out the door.

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Re: Pembroke Part II

Post  JAF on Thu May 08, 2014 7:14 am

I believe 19 years old is the magic number and there's some wording about whether it's the beginning of the academic year or the sport's season which I forget. I think it's the sport because I have a faint recollection of a BG player being affected - football season was OK, but lacrosse season wasn't (and that was the sport he went to college for too).

Corbin in admitting to making this decision "by himself" with only or primarily his personal assumption/opinion about why 8th grade was repeated probably opens himself and the NHIAA up to extended scrutiny. Whether the repeat happens at a private 8th grade, a public 8th grade, or as it's been stated an in home-school program shouldn't matter. Looking at middle school transcripts and talking to teachers is certainly a suspect excuse. IIRC Bedford was none too happy about him leaving - if you're a supporter of or employed by the school system (and it's athletic teams) - is there any bit of doubt that enters anyone's mind in this forum regarding whether you take/accept that input at full/face value?

How many 8th grade parents know much about the NHIAA? Following of rules & regulations falls upon the incoming school district. There's paperwork to fill out in order to transfer or copy records between districts. There are processes to be followed and who really knows if they were? The parents I'm sure do. How long as the AD been in that position at PA? Blaming her may be jumping the gun here especially since I have to believe it's not her job in order to review paperwork of all incoming students. Did the parents submit their petition voluntarily this year or were they requested to submit it (and by whom)?

BTW: It's very hard to compare to other cases without starting to name names and personally I don't think that's a good practice. In fact speculating on this situation is borderline as well. It's a huge grey area.


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Re: Pembroke Part II

Post  JAF on Thu May 08, 2014 7:25 am

Hooper wrote:

Dom Timbas is not too old, he has not been in high school too long.  He is doing exactly what all the boy's at Trinity have done, Half of BG's team.  


While I agree with your statements about red-shirting - you seem to have a lot of personal knowledge about two private schools... "ALL" the boys of Trinity and "HALF" of BG? Really. Which half of BG? Boys or Girls? Just the athletes? And what's your agenda and expertise in order to determine that? Is there something against those schools that you have as I believe this isn't the first time you've called them out...

Some people (myself included) don't ascribe to the public school "theory" that you must start 1st grade by a certain age. My parents did, but none of my children did.

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Re: Pembroke Part II

Post  bigkidsdad on Thu May 08, 2014 7:29 am

Thank you for the information formerfalcon and jaf I appreciate the info. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't anything I was missing.

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Re: Pembroke Part II

Post  tom2 on Thu May 08, 2014 7:44 am

does it really matter if it is one kid from BG or all of them? The bottom line is if you're going to hold one athlete to a set rules shouldn't you hold all of them to the same rules..how can Corbin get away with selective discrimination against just one kid. Everyone knows that many kids who play sports have repeated the 8th grade here in New Hampshire.

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Re: Pembroke Part II

Post  FormerFalcoln on Thu May 08, 2014 8:19 am

If Timbas is NOT over the age requirement, and he has only played 6 semesters of NHIAA sports, then I would assume (yes dangerous) that the homeschool paperwork and documentation was not provided to Pembroke, or that Pembroke did not provide the appropriate paperwork to the NHIAA.

Here's why I say that (FROM THE NHIAA BYLAWS):

The student meets the guidelines of the Age of Contestants Rule, Post-Graduate, Scholastic Standing
Rule, Semester Rule and all other Eligibility Rules set forth in By-Law Article II of the NHIAA
Handbook.
6. The principal shall be required to certify the students' eligibility and that, prior to making such a
certification, shall be satisfied the requirements of all NHIAA Eligibility Rules are met.
7. The Scholastic Standing Rule must be reviewed by the principal for each marking period the student
athlete wishes to participate and recorded on the official transcript held by the school where the
athlete participates.
8. The NHIAA member school must maintain a transcript of the student's academic record as well as
other relevant Eligibility Rules (i.e. age, semesters, etc.)
9. If the principal determines the eligibility requirements detailed above have been met, he/she may
declare the student immediately eligible to participate in interscholastic athletic competition. The
principal must inform the Association in writing that by completing the Non-Public and Home Educated Student Application, he/she has reviewed all NHIAA Eligibility Rules and certifies the
student has satisfied all of the eligibility requirements and, therefore, is eligible to try out in
interscholastic athletics at their school.
10. The requirements of the New Hampshire education statutes, relative to school attendance and
enrollment, must also be satisfied before a home educated student is declared eligible to participate.
11. A student falling under the provisions of this section is eligible to represent only one (1) school in
any academic year.

So it appears to me (just a guess) that PA must not have followed procedure upon Timabs arriving at PA.

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Re: Pembroke Part II

Post  tom2 on Thu May 08, 2014 8:37 am

It is selective targeting, this is so blatantly obvious.

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Re: Pembroke Part II

Post  JAF on Thu May 08, 2014 9:23 am


There's no way you enter a school district without paperwork from a previous district or level. Going into BG we had to provide/sign stuff from the Catholic middle school to provide transcripts to the high school. In order to get into the middle school we had to provide/sign stuff from the elementary school. Whether the principal looked at the paperwork or someone in the school staff did - who really knows. There is a paper trail. Yes home schooling has some differences; however, as I understand it parents of home schoolers have to provide education plans and records to the state. "Someone" has to approve the 'grade level' plan. It's as if the NHIAA/Corbin is now indicating in hindsight that the accepted plan was for a 9th grade student and that by entering 9th grade 3 years ago at PA, the child was essentially deemed to be repeating 9th grade. But that decision was not made clear until this year. Very strange stuff indeed especially in light of the all the other issues lobbied against PA.

Curiously a home schooled child in a district can "tryout" for the school team he/she is eligible for. I know of a home schooled athlete in town that tried out for a middle school basketball team, but got cut (5 years ago). It got a bit of "attention" in my town because the parent felt the child was cut "just because" they didn't attend the school. This child's parents "found a way" to get the child into another school district for high school where the child eventually played on the basketball teams throughout the 4 years there (for sure JV & Varsity). I've been told the parents rented an apartment in the other school district in order to be considered residents (I had always been under the impression the child was tuitioned in - it didn't matter or bother me in the least). I also know within the last couple of months their home in town was sold (saw it in the real estate transactions). The child was not a "superstar", but a good role player. As far as I know - not playing in college.

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Re: Pembroke Part II

Post  Hooper on Thu May 08, 2014 9:59 am

JAF is correct

I overstated when I said ALL of trinity and 1/2 of BG were Red-Shirted. Sorry, I was being dramatic

But......there have been students at both schools who have done EXACTLY what Dom Timbas has done.

I have been no means a supporter of PA but this is blatant selective targeting (Tom2's term). It would also seem like Pat Corbin is word-smithing the rule book as to when the clock should start. Sometimes it says when 8th grade is over (Not which eighth grade year) and sometimes it says 8 semesters when you enter high school.

No where does it say what you can repeat the 8th grade for.

Over the top

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Re: Pembroke Part II

Post  1moreknowitall on Thu May 08, 2014 10:17 am

Why the big fuss over being ineligible? From what I gather in my reading...these kids are attending Pembroke for a better education and better social atmosphere. Basketball isn't the end all and be all for everything....I'm sure they can get the same experience and atmosphere by practicing with the team everyday and serving in a manager type role.

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Re: Pembroke Part II

Post  tom2 on Thu May 08, 2014 11:06 am

it is difficult to read statements that you know to be untrue and not give the correct information so..
Dominic is still 17, when he graduates next year he will be 18 so age is not an issue.

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Re: Pembroke Part II

Post  Hooper on Thu May 08, 2014 11:49 am

Mr. Knowitall,

That must be sarcasm because you are taking your time to be on a blog about high school sports. You must know how devastating it would be for Dom Timbas (unjustly) to sit out a year would be for him. You must have an idea about how much of these kids free time is done practicing basketball because they love it.

Or you are on the wrong part of the internet


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Re: Pembroke Part II

Post  manchfan on Thu May 08, 2014 12:58 pm

Hooper,
I think that Knowitall was making a joke because everyone was saying the reason all of these kids moving to Pembroke was not for basketball, hence the unfairness of not getting a schedule, but rather for the social stability of the school and its academics. So, if the reason they moved was for all the other aspects that Pembroke as to offer and little to no part of it being to play basketball then they should be happy just attending the school. I could be wrong, but that is what I got out of Mr. Knowitall's post.

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Re: Pembroke Part II

Post  tom2 on Thu May 08, 2014 1:40 pm

in addition to not being over the age limit,the family of Dominic self reported and petitioned for the waiver along with the Pembroke administration. They were not caught or found out to have been doing something wrong. they were completely transparent and followed all the proper channels.
and to the previous posters, whether or not basketball is the end all be all or whether the kids are there for academics or social reasons, it is still an important part of their lives and why should people not protest if something is unjustly robbed from these kids who they themselves have done nothing wrong? based on all the ranting I see going on, I'm going to guess that if it were your child who was being treated unjustly, most of you would be doing some fair amount of squawking yourselves.

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