All-State Selections

Since NHBCO hasn't posted it figured I'd post what I know as of now. Have only heard a little of D2 so feel free to add the rest of D2, as well as D1.

D2 1st Team
POY- Steve Spirou (Pelham)
Michael O'loughlin (Milford)
Jamie Holder (Milford)
Seth Cordts (Souhegan)
Kahmal Walker (Portsmouth)
Sam Carney (Hanover)

2nd Team
Mike Mitchell (Milford) I think he was robbed
Pat Welch (Pembroke)
Babcar Kamara (Laconia)
Devin Gilligan (Souhegan)
David Hampton (Lebanon)
Matt Person (Pembroke)

Honorable Mention
Rene Maher (Pembroke)
Skyler Mitchell (Coe-Brown)
Adam Goodwin (Oyster River)
Derek Defranzo (Pelham)
Joey Mahar (Bedford)
Greg Leblond (John Stark)
Ryan Lange (Goffstown)
Alex Wageling (Goffstown)
Dan Gorman (Hanover)
Zander Morril (Lebanon)
Kohl Myers (Kingswood)

Let me say this, Mike Mitchell got screwed in being named second team All State in Division 2. Does anyone disagree that he is the best pure point guard in the state, regardless of division? Who is better? So how does he end up on second team? I don't care whether he plays on the same team as O'laughlin and Holder, the D2 coaches should have had the foresight to put him on first team as well.

Don't disagree that Mitchell is an outstanding pg and yes, I'd have wanted him on my team if I were creating an allstate team.

However, just a preemptive warning post...

We don't want these threads to get off track in celebrating the kids picked to these honors.

All-Division team, not an All-State team? To me All-State is the twelve best from every where in the state, that is the way many do it. Is this another case of NHIAA doing things differently? It just seems odd that an all-state team would have 40+ players on it. That is not even including honorable mention.
Notice DII not a Center on any team or even honorable mention, boys.

Joey Mahar was on the list, thought I saw another center. I'm not saying that's great or anything just pointing that out. Also I didn't see many good centers this year probably why there weren't many on the list. I also agree no way there should be that many honorable mentions it starts making it a joke.

I believe that Jr. Trevor Fahmy is Bedford's starting center, and Fr. Colin McMannus is the back up. Mahar is 2/3.

I forgot that Fahmy started, but Mahar isn't a 2 at all nor did he play 2 when I saw him. He has the ability to play the 3, but he's a 4.

I will give you that he could be 4, but with 6'8 Fahmy, 6'8 McManus, 6'7 McInerny, and 6'6 Larrivee, you can bet he is not a five. I also believe they were short-handed when you saw them.

The bedford milford game is on right now. Channel 21

Both times I saw them he was at the 4 spot for majority of the game, I could be wrong but oh well. But back to what started this the center/5 spot was on a down year at least in D2.

The center is not strong in DII. That is why I brought up Nelson. He may not be a typical 5, but at least he is a center. Though I was talking about the Senior Class All-Star game. They must of patch worked the center spot.

boxout wrote:All-Division team, not an All-State team? To me All-State is the twelve best from every where in the state, that is the way many do it. Is this another case of NHIAA doing things differently? It just seems odd that an all-state team would have 40+ players on it. That is not even including honorable mention.
Notice DII not a Center on any team or even honorable mention, boys.

Pardon me, but you realize this is the format that has been used here for years. The same thing happens at the next level. All-Americans are selected at D1,D2 & D3 levels - not just one list of 10, 12 or 15 for the entire college game. For years it was the Class I All-State Team!

The process of determining all-state players has no component that relates to position. It is pure vote based on who a coach feels are the best players. They are not allowed to vote for any of their own players. The player that accumulates th emost points in the voting gets the POY. The top 6 are first team, the next 6 are 2nd team, then rather doing a 3rd or 4th team, NH lumps the next group together as honorable mention. If you have been paying attention to the all-state teams in the past, you would know this is the way it has been.

Just as there are arguements and disagrements over who should get inot the NCAA tournament, as long as you have people voting for these things, there will always be issues that so&so got screwed. It could very well have been just a single voting point that put Mitchell on second team. Since they never release the vote totals, we wont know for sure.

I agree with you that the center position in Division 2 was not strong this year and the voting reflects this.

My biggest complaint about this process is that if a team plays a lot of teams twice the players on that team are seen by less coaches. That is the only issue I have with it. I am not arguing this for my son or any particular situation but I would have to think that playing teams twice is not good for the players vote totals. It may not show much this year with Milford but last year when you think about it they played Souhegan,Hollis,Conval,Pelham,Bedford,Monadnock and Stark twice. That is 14 games where only 7 coaches got to see them play. That leaves 4 other games and a total of 11 coaches that seen them. This year a team like Souhegan played more teams thus more coaches seen them. I believe this year Souhegan only did 4 teams twice. That means a total of 14 coaches seen them play. So if the coaches that did not see the Milford kids were not persuaded to vote for a Milford kid because they did not see them and the Souhegan kids were seen by more coaches... it can be an advantage. In a division where you are not balanced to begin with if you play teams twice it can cost you votes. That is my issue with the system. This is also why I feel the schedule needs conference scheduling.

Chikid - Your arguement does carry weight when your talking about an emerging player. To be brutally honest though, when it comes to the Milford kids, one cannot really make the argument that the HS basketball coaches in NH are not aware of these players and their abilities. Also, if you see a player once and he has a bad game, your view of him in person is not a "fair" appraisal of his year either. There is no "perfect system", but I think we can agree that what is in place works out pretty good on the overall.

It is my understanding that many if not all coaches come to the table with some stats to help make their case. Obviously these must be taken with a grain of salt at times as many of these are not accurate, but it does add something to the discussion.

Not sure you can get much from the stat line in many games.

I know some teams have "unofficial" stats, many have posted on these sites about it as well. I am not saying they tell the story, but they can help make the case for a player.

As I said, just seeing a player once is not going to be the end all either. I grant you it would be better. Its going to be an issue though when look at even a balanced D2. Simple economics & the desire to have rivalries is going to make is difficult to play 18 different opponents.

Your idea for 4 "conferences" within a division would also make it impossible for all the coaches to see all the teams.

As I said, no system is perfect and without its flaws which will always lead to the discussions

You are right, they do it exactly the same in the NCAA, however the big difference is the NCAA DI has less All-Americans than the state of NH has All-Staters. You can go right down the line. Not too mention, last I knew there were 311 DI schools playing basketball, last I looked I think there were 20 DI programs in this state. To compare the two seems silly and ludicrous. They don't do this in other states, some maybe, most no. Do you think MA has 800 All-State Male basketball players running around? Of course not. How about California, you think there are 3,000 All-State basketball players every year? Stop.
I understand you want to credit as many kids as possible, however there is such a thing as over doing it. In a state the size of NH there is no need for over 100 male All-Staters. I would bet that you add up all three NCAA divisions and they don't have 100 All-American basketball players in both men's and women's. The comparison is a good idea, just doesn't hold much weight.

To compare the two seems silly and ludicrous. "

You have completely missed the point.

You start by complaining the NHIAA does not select just 12 or so for All-state and sound like you have never realized this fact before now. My point was not the numbers of kids/teams in NH vs the NCAA, but the FACT that there are different levels of competetion that MUST be considered.

"I understand you want to credit as many kids as possible, however there is such a thing as over doing it."

I am not debating nor do I care about the overall number of kids honored - take a look around the country - some states have honorable mention lists that longer than NH's.

Perhaps the Arizona system is a good compromise - AZ selects all-divisions teams that much larger than our class/division all-state teams are, THEN they pick an all-state level. Would this style of post-season honors satisfy your craving? One could propose we do that, but it will still lead to massive arguments about who is on it and who isn’t.

As Chikid pointed out, many coaches within a division do not see a given player in person in any given year. I’m quite certain the Keene or BG coaches have a lot of extra time to try to evaluate players from Portsmouth Christian Academy.

If it helps your thought process - There are 24 first teamers across the state. Seems to me and most people I talk with that is a very reasonable amount. If you think there are issues & arguments in determining a first team for just the divisions, how much disagreement do you think there would be in trying to pick 5 or 6 first teamers for the whole state? It is a given that any D4 player is not facing the same level of competition that a D1 player is. It would take an extremely exceptional player at D4 to make All-State with your way of viewing it. Just as it would take an extraordinarily exceptional player in NCAA D3 to make an All-American Team if they were selected from all colleges regardless of division.

A couple of years ago, Curtis Williams of Newmarket was a D4 (then Class S) 1st team All-state player (and I think the Class S POY of ’09). Now under your only 12 system, I don't see him being all-state if you only pick 12. Even most of those here posting do not follow D3 much and D4 hardly at all. (Somersworth won the D3 title and with all these high number of honorees, they only placed one player on the all-state list.)

I will give you an example of this at the collegiate level. I'm here on the seacoast and have followed some of the local players here as they played in college. 4 NH players (2 from the Nashua area & 2 from here on the seacoast) have played at or are playing at WPI in the NEWMAC conference. Last year in that conference, MIT got a bench-warmer from D1 Brown (hardly a powerhouse D1 program) who in his first year in D3 became the conference POY and 2nd Team D3 All-America selection. Now there is no way on earth this kid would EVER be considered for All-America if he had to compete with the top D1 talent. the number of players honored would not matter.

As far as the number of players honored, in college some conferences select 3 teams for all-conference. Some pick just two. Some hand out a Rookie of the year, others pick an all rookie team. (seacoast local Alex Burt of Dover made the LEC all-rookie team). Some pick a defensive player of the year, some an all-defensive team and some do not handout any defensive post-season honors at all.

These kinds of honors vary all over the lot. I do not think the total number of honors demeans those who earn them. Does Mike O. feel his 1st team seelction is demeaned because there are so many honorable mentions? I believe last year Holder was one of those excessive honorable mentions. Did he feel his selection demeaned those who were on 1st team?

I have complained about this for years and I am not alone. It is just now that I found a forum to discuss with others, I apologize for forming an opinion. I do think that 24 First team All-Staters is a lot. Most basketball teams carry between 12-15 players. I understand the size of the schools matter, I don't dispute that. There is really no way of knowing whether a DIV kid is better than a DI player. My point is too many kids get onto a team that should be elite. Trust me I know that no selection format is going to be perfect. None are,however I do think they should have all Division teams and then pick an All-State team from that.
Now I know this is college football but players do get credit from lower levels, see PSC graduate Joe Dudek finishing 9th in the Heisman Award his Senior season. He also graced the cover of SI. Gordie Lockbaum is another, a two-way player in college at Holy Cross, he finished 5th one year and third one year for Heisman.
I don't think any first team player is concerned about those behind them. I am not complaining about Holder being left off the Second team last year. I am not even complaining about where Mitchell ended up this year. I feel he should be 2nd team, I feel Mitchell may have been the player of the 2011 DII Tournament, but I also think he kind of had a typical Mike Mitchell regular season, Holder did the same thing last year, had an Jamie Holder regular season, and was the star of the tournament. I actually agree with NHIAAA on First Teamers this year. I just feel that Walker PHS had a very good season and lead that team.
Again college is tough to compare with this, for the simple reason that college kids pick where they go, most high school kids are going where they live. It is not a players fault where they were raised.
Word gets out on many of these kids, there really is no hiding a good player anymore. Between AAU, Camps, HS ball, and any other basketball function, people know. Holder, Mitchell, and O'Loughlin are a good example of this, DII players who were found by colleges and they don't play DI. Many of these coaches know players better than you think. It is a small fraternity and they talk players all the time.

We agree on more than you think. Your point on Dudek though shows exactly why you can't just pick 12 all-staters and have nothing else. All those years and literally thousands and thousands of D3 football players and one guy cracks the top 10 for the Heisman. That is why there are All-American and POY awards at all levels.

The division then state model is perhaps the best fit. You are correct that coaches talk, and some even get involved in seeing more players than they are required to, BUT we are talking about making decisions between a group of players based on their performance over 18 or so games - NOT their reputation within the coaching community.

If we wish to move to the type of system we both agree would be better, then yes, you would have to say that only the division 1st team selections would be eligible for the all-state ballot.

1st Team
POY David Madol (Manchester Memorial)
Joe Gallant (Salem)
Conner Green (BG)
Sean McClung (BG)
John Wickey (Manchester Central)
Dimitri Floras (Merrimack)

2nd Team
Shomari Morgan (Manchester Memorial)
Kenaan Al-Darraji (Dover)
Caleb Donnely (Alvirne)
Zach Stevens (Trinity)
Tyler Gendron (Merrimack)
Mike Colby (Londonderry)

Honorable Mention
Brian Cronin (Spaulding)
Anthony Muccioli (Nashua South)
Chad Park (Pinkerton)
Wol Majong (Trinity)
Jesse Dionne (Exeter)
Gabe LaCount (Manchester Central)
Troy Mansfield (Londonderry)
Anthony Farmer (Nashua North)
Jeff Meisser (Salem)
Morgan Faustino (Dover)
Shaun Munson (Winnacunnett)

D1- Rob McLaughlin (Salem)
D2- Dan Murray (Milford)

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you the REAL D2 1st team All State courtesy of Dave Haley of NH Sports Page:


NHsportspage First Team

Stephen Spirou Pelham

Mike O'Loughlin Milford

Jamie Holder Milford

Mike Mitchell Milford

Sam Carney Hanover

Comments: Three players from the same team? Yes, when it is this team. You can't call Mitchell the best point guard in the state and then not put him on first team because two of his teammates are already there. He's a top five performer, he won two titles in a row and hasn't lost since last January. End of story.

Anybody else think Donnelly should be on DI First Team? I have a feeling my colleague at NHSP will again be presenting us the "real" first team tomorrow...

Hard to leave someone off, but I'd stick Donnelly up top in place of Gallant or Floras. Floras was a great scorer this year (led the division), but I think Caleb meant more to his team and their night in/night out performance.

I think this is one of the years you wish you could have another guy on 1st team.

I agree with you Assistant. I Think he has to be on first team. Not one played meant more for a team then Donnelly. When he was on they were unstoppable. When he was off they were off. I think its a no brainer that he should be on first team.