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Post  Tuesday and Friday on Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:48 am

Discussion of this subject was going on in the North at BG thread. I figured there will be a lot of discussion about it as we enter into the last 2 weeks of play. Here is a thread to discuss it.

Here is where I stand on the subject:

Teams with no chance of having a POY this season:

Timby
Londonderry - Painful for me to have this marvelously talented 2 - 12 team in this category Very Happy
Keene
Concord
Dover
Exeter - Next year if the Blue Hawks put it together maybe, Matt Barr gets some pub.
Winny
Memorial - Will be interesting to see which of the young Crusaders takes a big step forward next season.


Teams with a POY hanging on by a thread. With this next group the POY candidate for each team will have to go on a complete tear in the next 2 weeks to get noticed:

West - Aaron Martin. He has played like a POY at times this season carrying West through some games. Unfortunately, with the bad publicity surrounding the Blue Knights and their team falling in the standings, so is his chance of POY.

BG - Kesty has scored some lately and McCarthy has had scoring spurts worthy of a POY candidate. Team disfunction and being in the middle of the pack for standings certainly hurts a POY candidate coming from Lund Rd this season.

Alvirne - Beaulieu and Dunn certainly looked like POY candidates after the first 1/3 of the season. The middle 1/3 of the season hasn't been so kind to these 2 to garner POY consideration.

Central - Gabe Lacount was certainly a POY candidate in December. Unfortunately, he has had too many games where he has disappeared. With Central floundering as of late and a Top 4 slot a very big uncertainty, so is Lacount's chances for POY.

South - Anthony Muccioli has had some big games this year in some big South victories. South currently sits in 12th place. Tough to give a POY to a member of a team in 12th. He had 3 points against Exeter in an OT victory last week.

Trinity - Hard to imagine the current 1st place team not having a solid POY candidate going into the last 2 weeks of the season, but this is true with the Pioneers. Mabor Gabriel is the only Pioneer to receive any mention for POY. He did have 16 points in the big victory over Salem last Friday. If there's any player who needs a big 4 game scoring tear to end the season it's Gabriel.


Teams with the best chance of a POY:

Pinkerton: Chris Light has had a great season. Not only is he the leading scorer in D1, according to the NH Sportspage, but he has been consistent also. Every time I look in the box score win or lose Light has had a very good game. Seeing him in the box scores all the time means he hasn't missed games due to suspension either. VERY IMPORTANT for POY this season.

Merrimack - In a perfect D1 world Merry would be on top of the standings and Floras would be the run a way choice for POY. In this imperfect season Merry has had to adjust to the injury of the year in D1. Tyler Gendron showed glimpses of being able to carry this team immediately after the Floras injury, but lately he and the whole Merrimack team have been offensively challenged. Mr Gendron has 4 big games left with North, Winny, BG and Central to make a statement for POY.

Spaulding - Dominic Paradis is the 11th leading scorer, as according to NH Sportspage, on one of the hottest teams in D1 right now. He hit the game winner in their big OT victory at Central. Not only does he score, but plays good defense and rebounds. One could argue he might be the most complete POY candidate this season.

Salem - The most intriguing team with POY candidate(s). Who knew Ben Slepian in the month of December besides Salem people? I don't ever remember a player coming out of no where with no track record and vaulting themselves into POY candidacy like Salem senior Ben Slepian. I saw him against Trinity last Friday. The top team in D1 threw everything at him. They had 4 different players on him during the game including 6'7 Gabriel. Besides Welch of Pembroke Slepian might be the best shooter in the state right now. Some Salem people think Jon Klecan deserves POY. I can see their point. He has scored very nicely in recent games for Salem. He is one of the best defenders in the state and runs the offensive Salem show in a very smart way. The only problem with being the only realistic team with 2 legit POY candidates is the split vote factor. Because there is consideration for both Slepian and Klecan this usually paves the way for another player to win POY. Remember the Green/McClung POY factor last year? Memorial's Madol came away with the POY.

North - There is no question Ryan Gauthier is playing at a high level right now. North is on a roll and so is Gauthier. The North senior has scored a lot of points in the last 7 games for North including 24 against BG, 27 vs Memorial, 28 vs Spaulding and 21 vs South. One big problem though. At the start of the 2012 year Gauthier had the 3 dreaded letters for a slew of Titan games: DNP. He was on suspension. This factor is a big discussion factor when making a vote for Gauthier for POY. Do you factor in he has missed nearly 1/4 of the season due to suspension? How do you compare this to other players who have played the whole year? You have Light, Paradis, Slepian, Klecan and Gendron who are in box scores from December to Feb. In Jan you didn't see Gauthier in the box scores until the very end of the month. This is a big factor to determine the POY and it is one which will be decided upon by the final tally of votes from the D1 coaches.




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Post  Bert54the1 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:17 pm

In a perfect D1 world Merry would be on top of the standings and Floras would be the run a way choice for POY. In this imperfect season Merry has had to adjust to the injury of the year in D1. Tyler Gendron showed glimpses of being able to carry this team immediately after the Floras injury, but lately he and the whole Merrimack team have been offensively challenged. Mr Gendron has 4 big games left with North, Winny, BG and Central to make a statement for POY.

Hey, we all know it's an imperfect world. I did some research. In the 8 games since Floras went down (the 1st Q v Concord Merrimack is 6-2.) Gendron is sporting a 17.4 average. Whatever is bad about Merrimack, it isn't his fault.

You certainly are correct, "offensively challenged" is a on target for the Merrimack team. However, having to adjust to the injury of the year in D1 is a plus on Gendron's side of the ledger. If Merrimack had scored one more hoop at Spaulding and it snowed on Friday night so there wasn't a Pinkerton loss on the resume, would he be leading the pack, today?

How much is scoring a factor...Jon Klecan is being considered. He should. But I'm not sure what he averages. His defense and ability to steer Salem's boat are huge factors for Salem's successes.

The only problem with being the only realistic team with 2 legit POY candidates is the split vote factor. Because there is consideration for both Slepian and Klecan this usually paves the way for another player to win POY. Remember the Green/McClung POY factor last year? Memorial's Madol came away with the POY.



I like this quote. Slepian is a good choice. I love the way he can fill-it-up. But he has Klecan.

Chris Light is a good player as well. The only solution......wait until the post-season is over.

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D1 Boys POY Empty suspension strengthens Gauthiers case

Post  Wildcats on Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:27 pm

looking at North's schedule, without him at the start of the season they barely beat 3 of the lowest ranked teams in D1...Exeter (by 4), Timberlane (by 9), Keene (by 6) all at HOME...while getting blasted by Trinity...not sure when exactly Ryan came back but since then North has gone 8-2 (?) against much stiffer competition including road wins @ Spaulding, BG, and Pinkerton...it's safe to say that without the play of Gauthier, North would be fighting for a 12-16 seed and not a top 4. With 4 games left against high quality opponents, he has a shot to really seperate himself from the pack.

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Post  Tuesday and Friday on Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:40 pm

" If Merrimack had scored one more hoop at Spaulding and it snowed on Friday night so there wasn't a Pinkerton loss on the resume, would he be leading the pack, today?"
Bert54

I can't go by what ifs and maybes. You could say this for a lot of players and teams. It would further convolute the POY situation. I go by definites and concrete information.



"The only solution......wait until the post-season is over."
Bert54


I have, will and always disagree with waiting to do the POY until after the post season. I put far greater weight on a body of work of 18 regular season games than I do of 1, 2, 3 or 4 games in post season. The games of December to very early March mean more for POY and the All State teams. They have all tournament teams and MVP of the tournament to take care of the players who advance further in the playoffs. The regular season and playoffs are 2 distinct seasons and should be treated as such with regards to POY, All state, Tournament MVP and All Tournament teams

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Post  Tuesday and Friday on Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:46 pm

Good point wildcats. I'm sure there will be some coaches who don't vote for him because of the at least 4 game suspension. There will be coaches who over look the suspension and vote for him for what he did for 3/4 of the season he played. It is an interesting argument. I will say this. In most normal years in D1 where the talent is deeper and the strength of the teams are deeper, Gauthier wouldn't have stood a chance for POY in previous years. In this year of talent being down, depth of strong teams being shallow, it wouldn't surprise me to see a player walk away with POY after being suspended for 1/4 of the year.


The times they are a changing for better..... or for worse.

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D1 Boys POY Empty I agree T&F...

Post  Wildcats on Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:54 pm

POY is based on regular seaon...should David Freese have been the MVP of the National League last year because of his post-season performance? Ray Knight in 1986? Player of the Year is the body of work that each coach gets to witness...during the season...the tournament has seperate awards/all-tourney teams to select. suspensions and injuries have to play a part, but if it's minimal time missed (4-5 games, which would equate to 2 about weeks) they should not be held against the player...

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D1 Boys POY Empty good point...

Post  Wildcats on Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:59 pm

on the talent level being down...that is a big reason why players like Gauthier (who missed 4-5 games), Slepian (who wasn't even on the varsity to start the year), and Floras (who hasn't played have the season, but IS the most talented HS player in D1) are all in the discussion. Hopefully someone like Gendron or Light really carries their team to the finish line and makes it an easier choice.


Last edited by Wildcats on Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)

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Post  SeacoastDad on Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:30 pm

For us relative newbies, how is the voting done, and by whom?

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Post  Tuesday and Friday on Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:38 pm

Vote by the 19 head coaches in D1. They vote for All State teams and the votes from that determine the POY.

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D1 Boys POY Empty voting

Post  Wildcats on Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:39 pm

All the coaches in each Division fill out a ballot for thei respective division...6 1st team selections (listing their POY 1st on this team), 6 2nd team and 10 honorable mention...


Last edited by Wildcats on Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:39 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)

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D1 Boys POY Empty I don't think Dimitri is in anyone's discussion for POY.

Post  Bert54the1 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:39 pm

Unfortunately, the injury has cost him half the season. He is talented. He is a leader. No question about it. But Player of the Year, this year?

Gauthier has been playing well, but the 4-5 game suspension will hurt his position. Slepian and Klecan are a tough tandem, no question. Which one do they choose?

Anyway, we are talking about an 18 game HS season, where everyone sees everyone only once. (Unless there are those few Thursday or Saturday games, where all coaches can get a bigger taste.) Another question......Tuesday and Friday. Why does everyone play Tuesday and Friday? Is that necessary? Couldn't you change your moderator's name? How does 6-days a Week sound?

So my point is....what difference would it make it make if we look at the big picture and wait until after the playoffs? I'm not saying that you base the decision solely on the work done in the playoffs. I'm saying, what's the difference if we considered both....and how about this....let's also consider what a player did during the holiday tourneys. What's the difference? We are talking about 22 games total. (25 if you count the holiday tourneys) The 162 game major league season followed by a Davis Freese's break-out in a handful of playoff games isn't a good comparison. But heck, in NH we don't even count the holiday tourneys. Which in itself is a joke.

How about this for consideration, If an undefeated, 1st place team gets dumped in the 1st round, would anyone say they are the greatest NH team of all time....look at the great year they had! When Merrimack lost the last two years in 1st round home games, did anyone feel their season was special even though their regular season records might suggest that they had a successful year. Not really, everyone points a negative finger at them. I'm thinking Tim Goodridge doesn't feel good about those two seasons.

In NH we are reluctant to change. It seems as if I'm suggesting that we have an all-state game where we divide up the top 16 D1 players in the state, have a game, and then pick POY.

I just want to consider the whole body of work.

If Trinity wins the D1 regular season, and lose in playoffs, does the NHIAA give them a huge trophy, and a lot of press. The playoffs count, right.


Last edited by Bert54the1 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:14 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : typos)

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Post  goldenbear on Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:51 pm

Gauither had three points against Winnacunnet and as had some bad games including his first game back against Londonderry,

He would need a tremendous finish to get it but I really think the suspension needs to play a part.

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Post  Tulliver on Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:33 pm

The parity of this season, to me, is more marked than most seasons past.

To me this year - the difference is going to come down to a combination of factors for a true POY to emerge (talent, athleticism, skilled with court smarts).

A few weeks ago - I saw a game marked with individuals playing in the same uniform and some players who did what their coach told them to do and didn't seem to understand why.

It reminded me of this guy I worked with years ago - great guy who trained a squirrel.
He trained to squirrel using a nut or something to come over to him when he was outside on break/downtime.
The squirrel would come right up to him eventually.

Well, one day - someone else tossed an M&M or something out into the street and the squirrel got run over.

Athleticism, talent and even fundamentals (which I completely agree aren't always evident in full force these days) aren't gonna get someone to the level of a POY without having the court smarts and understanding of the game.


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Post  Jeremy Leveille on Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:48 pm

Bert54the1 wrote:So my point is....what difference would it make it make if we look at the big picture and wait until after the playoffs? I'm not saying that you base the decision solely on the work done in the playoffs. I'm saying, what's the difference if we considered both....and how about this....let's also consider what a player did during the holiday tourneys. What's the difference? We are talking about 22 games total. (25 if you count the holiday tourneys) The 162 game major league season followed by a Davis Freese's break-out in a handful of playoff games isn't a good comparison. But heck, in NH we don't even count the holiday tourneys. Which in itself is a joke.

How about this for consideration, If an undefeated, 1st place team gets dumped in the 1st round, would anyone say they are the greatest NH team of all time....look at the great year they had! When Merrimack lost the last two years in 1st round home games, did anyone feel their season was special even though their regular season records might suggest that they had a successful year. Not really, everyone points a negative finger at them. I'm thinking Tim Goodridge doesn't feel good about those two seasons.

In NH we are reluctant to change. It seems as if I'm suggesting that we have an all-state game where we divide up the top 16 D1 players in the state, have a game, and then pick POY.

I just want to consider the whole body of work.

If Trinity wins the D1 regular season, and lose in playoffs, does the NHIAA give them a huge trophy, and a lot of press. The playoffs count, right.

THANK YOU. Finally someone else besides me gets it!

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Post  Tuesday and Friday on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:15 pm

Geez Jeremy. I see us agreeing this season lasted all of about 3 days.

Tully, I'm so sad about that squirrel.

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Post  Tulliver on Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:10 pm

The point about the squirrel (though it is a true story) is that it's not enough to teach someone how to do something - they have to be able to figure out when to use a skill.

When Central played Dover about 7 years ago at UNH - Matt Lemieux took over on the floor when there were no time outs (or for whatever reason CHS didn't call a time out) and changed a play. They won the game.

Matt Lemieux was not a squirrel.

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Post  Tuesday and Friday on Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:17 pm

When did the Forum turn into the Wild Animal Kingdom show?

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D1 Boys POY Empty Gauthier stakes his claim

Post  Bert54the1 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:53 pm

An awesome POY performance for the young man. Maybe he's really sorry about the suspension.

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Post  goldenbear on Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:00 am

Yes Ryan played well tonight but knowing what he got suspended for I do not think the coaches will give it to him

But if he continues to play this well maybe they will have a shot at cutting down the nets and that is more important and maybe he will be able to get a D 2 look and grow from as a player and a person

I do think Coach Lane should get some votes for coach of the year

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Post  GNG on Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:08 pm

Might be time we start mentioning the 2 kids from Pinkerton for some awards.

Light is leading the league in scoring, and Patrikis is a big fella down low.

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Post  Tuesday and Friday on Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:46 pm

On Friday Slepian had 19 in Salem's 76 to 41 victory over Keene.

Gauthier had 31 in North's 64 to 62 loss to Central.

Paradis was held to 7 points by the Trinity front line in Spaulding's loss to Trinity.

Chris light had 18 to lead Pinkerton to their 71 - 43 win over West on Thursday. Aaron Martin scored 16 in a losing cause.

Muccioli had 8 points in South's 62 to 40 win over Timby.


Heading into the last week of the season I think the POY award is still up in the air. The last week of the season could clarify the POY picture or make it more muddled.

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Post  Jeremy Leveille on Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:39 pm

Tuesday and Friday wrote:On Friday Slepian had 19 in Salem's 76 to 41 victory over Keene.

Gauthier had 31 in North's 64 to 62 loss to Central.

Paradis was held to 7 points by the Trinity front line in Spaulding's loss to Trinity.

Chris light had 18 to lead Pinkerton to their 71 - 43 win over West on Thursday. Aaron Martin scored 16 in a losing cause.

Muccioli had 8 points in South's 62 to 40 win over Timby.


Heading into the last week of the season I think the POY award is still up in the air. The last week of the season could clarify the POY picture or make it more muddled.

Or you could just wait until after the state title game. Wink

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Post  Tuesday and Friday on Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:47 pm

Good luck trying to change it there, Compadre.


Probably won't be changed in my lifetime.....Yours.......Or Jermey L Jr.s' lifetime. Cool

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Post  EBlessNHSP on Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:45 am

I actually like the regular season awards. There should absolutely be a player awarded as POY for the regular season. Then, at the end of the tournament, a Tournament MVP award is issued. The two points of the season are really two different animals when it comes to game situations, players ability to step up, etc. so I have no problem with awarding a set of "all-stars" and POY after the end of the regular season.

IF you're going to do that I think you have to do a All-Tourney team and Tourney MVP however. Is that not how the NCAA works? I believe it does, Kemba Walker was the NCAA Tourney MVP last year Fredette was the Naismith winner (amongst many other various "mvp" awards).

Last year's NCAA situation is a very good example of why it should be separated. There is no way Kemba Walker deserved the entire year MVP if you combined regular season and tournament. Clearly, Fredette was the best player in the country during the regular season. But even more clearly Walker was the MVP of both the Big East Tourney and NCAA Tournament, but in no way deserved "whole season" awards. In fact, if you look deeper into the Walker comparison and look within the Big East, he wasn't even named POY for his conference. Ben Hansbrough won that award from ND, and its widely considered Walker didn't win it b/c he was consistently inconsistent. His run through the tournament was a thing of beauty and he deserved recognition, which he got with the Tourney MVP.

So...by eliminating the regular season awards you've essentially weighted these awards based on the Tournament which I don't think makes sense. It would be hard after the Tournament not to give the POY to a kid like Walker who so clearly dominated at the end of the season. POY is about your year-long ability to demonstrate team and personal accomplishment. Walker only did that for 2 weeks in March during the Big East tourney and 3 during the NCAA tourney. The rest of the year he was not the POY.

Thoughts?

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D1 Boys POY Empty My opinions have been stated earlier i this thread...BUT

Post  Bert54the1 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:58 am

Let's think about some of the biggest questions....

Coaches select POY, correct? Aside from the 18 regular season games that they coach, how many games.... other games..... do they get to see? 4? 6? So in reality, most coaches get to see someone like Paradis or Klecan 2 times. We have such a small fish bowl here in NH....added to that, with games on Tuesday and Fridays, we get a small sampling of games to view. I'll shoot this question again, why can't we play games on other nights...I've seen a few more than past years. But not enough. Why couldn't the NHIAA wait until the middle of March to make the final decision?

The NCAA and the NHIAA are a little different. Forget comparisons to UConn's Walker or, in a previous comment, the St. Louis Cardinal's World Series star, Freese. We are comparing Girl Scout cookies to Filet Mignon.

Again we don't want to JUST look at the playoffs, or JUST look at the regular season.....we should look at the entire body of work. That might help to get it right. It's a subjective choice....let's get as close as we can to the correct choice.

Don't eliminate POY or Tourney MVP....they could still be two different awards. The operative work is LOOK. Consider. What's the big deal? If a player carries his team in the playoffs, but wasn't a player of the year candidate....so what. Keep them as two different awards...just look.

The playoff situation as it currently stands is two more home games and two neutral site games. Yes, it is win or go home.....but are they really two different animals as the assistant says?
The two points of the season are really two different animals when it comes to game situations, players ability to step up, etc. so I have no problem with awarding a set of "all-stars" and POY after the end of the regular season. THE ASSISTANT.

Night after night NH basketball plays a hard, physical game...players need to and are asked to step-up every night. A loss in January can be as important as one in late February.

Let me pose a hypothetical question....Pinkerton and Spaulding are playing in the Championship...2 players in the game are top candidates for POY. Spaulding wins behind Paradis' floor leadership, his defense on Light, and his 14 points. He has played well in the 4 games of the tourney, averaging 15 ppg and 10 rebounds. Light has played well in the tourney, but has been held in check by Paradis, only scoring 6 points. On the other hand Spaulding's 3-point specialist, McGregor, goes off 24 in the final, 21 in the semis...25 in the 1st round when Spaulding was almost upset. Wouldn't consideration of the playoffs clear up the muddled situation of NH D1 POY? Paradis would be POY. McGregor tourney MVP. What could waiting hurt?

So again, look at the body.... the whole body..... regular season, christmas tournament, playoffs....this will give more coaches more time to really see some players. Hopefully, no one will see a kid get hot in the tournament, and confuse his tournament MVP with the regular season POY. What difference would it really make if the coach voted after the playoffs. That's my humble opinion.

One last question....does the NHIAA select coach of the year before the playoffs?


Last edited by Bert54the1 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:01 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typos)

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