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Post  JT_nh_hs_fan on Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:04 pm

"Was the best point guard in the state self-titled or who made that up? "

boxout & I have had some good back & forths on here, but he has a point on this. Whether everyone here thinks that Mitchell should be on the 1st team because they believe he is the best PG in the state is truly not relevant. You have to understand that these coaches are voting on what they feel are the best players, not the best PG, center or forwards. Playing position does not enter into it.

You are going to have to look long and hard to find a 1st team that has 5/6 players and has 3 from the same squad on it. You can rationalize your feelings for 3 all you want, the fact is that is not how it works in the real world. You hear this all the time at the professional level when they discuss awards such as these when a team has multiple players who could win the award. The term you hear is called splitting the vote. You also have to factor in what each coach uses as a criteria to make these determinations. Contributions to the overall success of their team, individual statistics (whatever maybe available), personal impressions based on what the coach has actually seen with his own eyes. The views of us blogging do not enter into it, nor do the number of college opportunities the player has collected. It is based on the actual performance of this particular season and how the voter ranks that performance against the other players.

This year I believe D2 had 24 coaches voting so obviously at least 1 of them felt Mitchell was not 1 of the best 6. Without the vote totals, it is impossible to know just how many felt there were 6 or more players ahead of him. My bet is if he were not on the same team as Holder & O'Loughlin and played the same, he may have been 1st team. Then again, if he is not playing with these guys, is he able to play as effectiviely as he has?...or does he press more because he needs to carry a bigger load? No way to know for sure.

The simple fact is when you have 3 high level players on one team, they do not all get placed on these kinds of teams. Now I'm sure some one can spend some time digging to find a couple of examples where it has happened, but if you find them, your going to find it most likely contains 3 players with extraordinary numbers. That is not the case here. These 3 did not all average 20+ a game or something like that.

Also, the idea of adding a spot just because you feel someone else is deserving is foolish. There will ALWAYS be someone who a case can be made for who should also be considered for such a spot.

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Post  EBlessNHSP on Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:14 pm

JT_nh_hs_fan wrote:
The simple fact is when you have 3 high level players on one team, they do not all get placed on these kinds of teams. Now I'm sure some one can spend some time digging to find a couple of examples where it has happened, but if you find them, your going to find it most likely contains 3 players with extraordinary numbers. That is not the case here. These 3 did not all average 20+ a game or something like that.

Also, the idea of adding a spot just because you feel someone else is deserving is foolish. There will ALWAYS be someone who a case can be made for who should also be considered for such a spot.

I was not suggesting adding a spot - just felt that there were 7 deserving this year. You're right, because the next year 8 would be deserving.

What about the Trinity powerhouse team with Brickley and Co.? Anybody know who got AllState that year?

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Post  JT_nh_hs_fan on Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:24 pm

Unfortunately, along with all the other short comings we point out about the NHIAA, their have done a horrific job of preserving the history of NH high school sports.

Also, the NHBCO has not kept a public record of its history.

I took just a few minutes & looked up the history of the NBA's All-NBA teams. Since 1947, the leagues first year, 3 on the first team from one team has only happened once. The 1958-59 team had Bill Russell, Bob Cousy, and Bill Sharman on it. Even during the run the Celtics had when they completely dominated the leage, they only did it once. All those Hall-of-Famers, and still only once. Also, in those years the NBA consisted of only 8/9 teams! As I said, its very, very rare.

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Post  EBlessNHSP on Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:32 pm

I just looked through the ACC archives, and it's never happened, even with all the great Duke and UNC teams.

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Post  EBlessNHSP on Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:43 pm

After doing a little research, some states do a 13-man team. I guess b/c most teams are made up of 13 players (including bench). Interesting way to do it.

My NH 13 Man All State Team

Madol
Green
McClung
Wickey
Donnelly
Mitchell
O'Loughlin
Holder
Floras
Spirou
Torrey
Arsenault
Edgerly

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Post  chicagokid43 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:52 pm

I would have to find room on that list of 13 for Ezra Hodgeson from Conant. No one added more on both sides of the ball to a team than him. Without him Conant would have had a long season for sure.

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Post  EBlessNHSP on Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:00 pm

Yea...I just made that list in like 2 minutes. I haven't seen most these guys play (this year) so it's all debatable. I saw Ezra last year and he was a HUGE part of their team then, and with him being their go-to guy this year I imagine he would have been a big part of their success this year.

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Post  chicagokid43 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:14 pm

I was just reading all the all state stuff and I started throwing numbers around and realized that Mike did something I think is pretty impressive. He must have ended up with about 600 points and 500+ assist. That is pretty cool.
Anyway, All state stuff in NH will never be exact but Mike and I thank those that feel he deserved to be First team. In Mikes eyes he has been on the first team for two years... First team names Milford.


Last edited by The Assistant on Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Merged...no need to start another topic when it's already being discussed in this one - ChiKid strikes again -The Assistant)

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Post  Tuesday and Friday on Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:01 pm

When some coach or writer starts their process of picking All State teams and thinks of the statement, "You can't put 3 players from the same team on an AS team", then their AS team vote has a prejudice from the start. I don't care about the argument of not putting 3 players on a 1st or 2nd team etc or it will be a split vote. When some one is picking an AS team they should look at the 6 best players. I don't like comparing apples to oranges (NBA AS votes) or plums (College AS votes). Each individual vote is it's own vote and not based on prior year or prior history. To bring history up is short sighted and doesn't do justice to this year's performers.

It's been known in the past coaches have purposely left certain players off first teams when that player was a NO BRAINER 1st teamer. Different factors for this might be coaches involved with rivalries with another team, coaches not liking another coach on another team or a coach not liking fans or parents on another team. Is this fair when coaches let these factors come into play when making out an AS team vote? Absolutely not, but life isn't fair. Only those coaches know who they are and what they did. If they can live with themselves for punishing a kid because they have ulterior motives with the aforementioned factors I listed, then I hope they sleep on a comfortable pillow to ease their conscience. I'm just saying it's happened in the past, it COULD'VE happened this year and it will happen in the future.

I just hate when politics mixes with sports. It's like putting mustard on a cheese pizza.

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Post  Guest on Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:01 pm

That's an exageration there will be 2 from bg,3 definately from from Milford Nelson might make 4, 2 or 3 from Souhegan, at least 1 from Merrimack, 1 from South I'll name the kids if you'd like, and you'll probably see kids like Josh Morgan from Campbell. It's generally pretty scattered. But again that wasn't the point you initially were arguing, your initial point was why wasn't Jake Woodward on any of these list as he was last years Class I POY or kids such as himself that are talented but outside of a 20-30 minute radius of Nashua and again that's because they do all-area, so he/they don't come into play. Now if I mis-read and you were refering to WGAM or Mr.Basketball I apologize, I have no idea who even picks there all-state teams or anything.

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All-State Selections - Page 2 Empty Not sure i agree with that.

Post  basketballtime on Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:28 pm

The simple fact is when you have 3 high level players on one team, they do not all get placed on these kinds of teams. Now I'm sure some one can spend some time digging to find a couple of examples where it has happened, but if you find them, your going to find it most likely contains 3 players with extraordinary numbers. That is not the case here. These 3 did not all average 20+ a game or something like that.

One thing all three of them do have is back to back championships that nobody else has. and a 40 game winning streak never mind beating your division one team winner BG three times in a row by twenty plus. I have no problem looking at Holder, O'Louglin and Mitchell being three of the best players on the offensive and defensive side of the ball in divison two basketball. And i really don't think Mitchell has to score 20 points a game to deserve a nod when he dishes out over 500 assist's and 600 points in his career while already having two players that reached the 1000 point club on the same team. In my opinion all three of them have played a much higher level of basketball not only during the season but more so on the aau circuit. There's no way i see the other three picks Carney, Walker and Cordts playing the same amount of minutes on the Jayhawks or Rivals team or even making the team in the first place. Just my opinion though.

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Post  boxout on Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:35 pm

There were 25 players selected. Bigman I would absolutely love to see your team. Remember this is only BG, South, North, WLC, Milford, Merrimack, Campbell, H/B, Souhegan, Alvirne, am I missing anyone? They also pick two teams of 7, and the rest are honorable mention. I would be willing to bet you will see all 5 BG starters on that list somewhere, and maybe they should, first title since Skip Barry. I bet Milford gets 4 potentially 5, they got 4 last year. Traditionally you also have to have at least one representative from all of those schools. Another prediction, this maybe the largest Telegraph All-Star team in 2011. Man this is going to get crazy around here when it is announced. It will make for good debate, that I do admit. Maybe I am wrong and everything is perfect.

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Post  Guest on Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:40 pm

I'll quickly put a team of 25 together but I have to leave so if it's not posted right away I'll get back to it later, I also think they cover bedford also so I'll include them.

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Post  boxout on Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:41 pm

I know Mitchell had a hell of a career, lets not put those numbers in stone. No one kept track of this, and we have no idea how accurate it is. Remember this is not a career list, this is this season and has nothing to do with AAU.

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Post  basketballtime on Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:56 pm

The points are tracked and Chikid is probably close to being dead on with the assists numbers. And i know it's about this years numbers but i would love to see another kid who has as many assist's and points this year as him? Bottom line i still don't see any of the other three doing what he did this year.

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Post  boxout on Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:14 pm

How accurate the assist numbers are, throughout the entire state, I don't know of a school that officially keeps Assists, I am not talking about a teams bench doing it or a family member. I am talking official stat book. They usually only keep PT, FG, FGA, 3ptFG,3pt FGA, FT, FT%, and fouls. Remember it takes volunteers to do this officially, most schools don't have it. I would agree that Mitchell might have lead all of NH in assists this year, but to be honest with you, I have no idea. There could be a kid out there in NH who averages 8 assists a game and 2 points a game. We don't know. He may play for some team that is at the bottom of the ladder. I have never ever seen a top 10 assist leaders in NH basketball.

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Post  EBlessNHSP on Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:21 pm

There are no official NH Stats for Assists, Blocks, Rebounds or Steals. Too bad, but there are just not enough "basketball" people around to fully understand the rule books to keep accurate stats at all the games around the state every Tuesday and Friday.

When I coached a Teacher volunteered his time to keep all those stats for us, and students did shot charts etc. Needless to say, this person did a wonderful job but they were only as good as his eyes from the sideline, you miss a lot when the action is on the other end of the court, not to mention that this individual was not a "basketball" guy. He did a wonderful job for us though. Those statistics he kept were more for internal use from a coaching perspective, and even if we did want to submit them somewhere, there is nobody at the NHIAA gathering or accumulating that information.

Your best statistical analysis and records are found at NHSportsPage.com where Haley has done a good job of getting as many game box scores as people will provide him (AD's, Coaches, People doing the books, etc.). You think the NHIAA enter's the faxed box score into a database somewhere? Doubtful.

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Post  HaleyNHsports on Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:33 pm

I just saw the running conversastion (was banging out 3,000 words on final power rankings for Friday...I'm sure that will get reactions too) and wanted to jump in to explain the origins of All-state picks on my site.

First off to the point that we (I have four writers) don't see every game, well of course we don't its logistically impossible, but here is how I personally come with all-state picks or power rankings;

It works for all four divisions the same way but I'll use Division IV as the example. I never made one trip to Colebrook, Profile or Littleton but I can tell you anything you want to know about those teams. All three coaches email me their box scores and in some cases a quick re-cap of their game. I then routinally respond with a question about the team and certain players and the coaches respond. I'll also respond and say "Is Groveton starting to come on?" and then off the record they'll tell me about the team and in most cases , how the Groveton kids are playing. I do the same thing with Central coaches, Portsmouth coaches, Pelham coaches, Souhegan coaches, Prospect Mtn coaches, Conant..on and on.and.on..and..on

I've had another site take a shot at me and say I don't go to enough games. You're an idiot (not you boxout its a vaild argument) if you think in this day and age you need to be in 12 gyms at once to know what you're talking about. I know what kids other kids can't stand, I know what teams coaches think are overrated and I know what kids are better than people think. Follow me around SNHU or Durham sometime. I'll be talking to 10 different coaches a day there. I sat at the D3 semifinals with five coaches from that Division talking about the kids/the season and the game being played. You build relationships with these coaches and then , because they respect you, they talk to you freely.

That is how you cover it. Standing in a corner with a tape recorder isn't the answer no matter how many games you see.

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Post  chicagokid43 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:49 pm

The only number I have ever tracked is assist. Now I admit that the sophomore year I estimated some since I was not there for every game. However I did not miss a game and filmed three quarters of them over the last two years. So the numbers are very close. However I could see someone doubting the numbers since the statisticians over the last few years in Milford had no idea you get an assist off an inbounds play and that just because the player that scores uses a dribble or two to finish at the hoop an assist can still be awarded. So while the numbers were not exact (thus the word ABOUT) they have got to be very close. I did not do this to justify my sons performance or to argue what all state team he should be on. Again he was first team all state in my book, BACK TO BACK!

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Post  boxout on Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:35 pm

I really am happy that you clarified the definition of an assist to those overpaid, overappreciated, very selfish statisticians, for missing an assist here and there in Milford. I believe they are volunteer. You also know that an assist can be intrepreted. It is not like scoring a basket, or hitting a homerun, or a goal in soccer. Assits maybe the most varied opinion of what one is in basketball.
Much like any other statistic assists can be debated on worthiness, such as Rajon Rondo dribbles up court , no pressure, passes it to Ray Allen immediately fires up a three makes it and you get an assist. Perfect assist, didn't do much but you get assist, well not every point guard in the NBA has Ray Allen shooting threes. It is a gift to have a shooter like Ray on your team. You can actually be the greatest passer in the history of the game, if you don't have anyone that can score the ball it means nothing.
I really am sorry that I questioned the assist count, I do believe that you videotaped every game and counted every assist, I am not surprised. With that said, once again All-State is not a career award it is one season. Your son is a terrific ballplayer, have enjoyed watching him play. This is not a slight either, but I and nobody else who has ever covered HS, Coached, Referees, or just a fan of NH basketball could tell you the All-Time assist leader is.
You also stated that he averaged 5-7 assists, there is a big difference between the two. It would seem to me, no facts to back it up, neither does anyone else is that the average is 4-5 range. You have stats on one players assist that is it. Once again your son has had a great career, this state has had some very good point guards in its history. Do you know I could come up with two point guards in Milford alone who put up those kind of numbers, they just never won it all. Which brings up another point, moving on in tournament certainly helps with career totals in every stat. There is more too, you count xmas tournament games too? Not all teams go to these, so some kid never got those games. You counting preseason and scrimmages too?
HINT on one of Milford's point guards? He was All-State Class L, played in Alhambra Classic, won two state titles coaching Souhegan.
Chi-kid just understand that the history of Milford, and any other school didn't start when you moved here for basketball.

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Post  Guest on Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:52 pm

I love Milford basketball...but I just hate how almost everything has to turn into a discussion about Milford, I'm sure I've done it before but I try to start a new topic if it's going to be solely Milford related. I started this topic more to discuss the All-State nominees, which would include congratulations, who may have gotten snubbed, the OTHER players on the lists, It hasn't completely gotten off topic but is getting there.

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Post  JT_nh_hs_fan on Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:52 pm

"One thing all three of them do have is back to back championships that nobody else has. and a 40 game winning streak never mind beating your division one team winner BG three times in a row by twenty plus. I have no problem looking at Holder, O'Louglin and Mitchell being three of the best players on the offensive and defensive side of the ball in divison two basketball. And i really don't think Mitchell has to score 20 points a game to deserve a nod when he dishes out over 500 assist's and 600 points in his career while already having two players that reached the 1000 point club on the same team. In my opinion all three of them have played a much higher level of basketball not only during the season but more so on the aau circuit. There's no way i see the other three picks Carney, Walker and Cordts playing the same amount of minutes on the Jayhawks or Rivals team or even making the team in the first place. Just my opinion though."

Sorry, but your trying to use an accumualtion of multiple seasons & out of season info to justify something that is NOT, repeat NOT based on that. While all those things you mentioned help a players reputation and basketball resume for recruiters, they are not the basis for being a 1st teamer over another player. Last time I checked, this was the 2010-2011 NH Division II All-State Team. The selctions are based on the coaches evaluations of this year's performances, There is no slot preset on the first team for the best PG. PF, C or AAU Player. Your 500/600 numbers have no bearing on the coaches vote for this year. (Chikid, do you know if your coach took whatever data you did gather for this season to the All-state selection meeting?) Neither does winning the title this year since the voting is done before the playoffs.

Clearly they are all 3 in the top 12, perhaps even in the top 7, only the vote outcome can tell us for sure. Also, some coaches clearly believe they are all not in the top 6.

My point about high end numbers was to say that to get 3 on a team there would need to be some big time supporting stats, not just someone's opinion.

Also, as far as those other 3 boys not making that particular AAU team, seems to me people on these sites are constantly asking for other people to stop putting down kids based your personal opinion of what they may or may not be capable of achieving. Did those 3 actually tryout and not make the team? If not, I would say your negative remarks about them need to be rephrased.

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Post  Guest on Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:59 pm

Who chooses Gatorade POY? Anyone know, thought it was interesting to see Connor Green win that but Madol win NHBCO's POY. I guess before I had just assumed there was a connection between the both.

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Post  chicagokid43 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:15 pm

Seems someone is putting words in my mouth as I stated nothing saying my son set any records, or deserved anything more than he has gotten. I stated what I believe his stats to be and included that they are not exact but would be very close. I never went as far as to say he even should be first team all state so I am not sure why you are coming at me.


Last edited by The Assistant on Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:31 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Inflammatory)

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Post  chicagokid43 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:20 pm

Just Curious who are those two guards from Milford? I would like to remember their names just as I think my son should be remembered.

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