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2010 Cheshire Tire Holiday Festival

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2010 Cheshire Tire Holiday Festival - Page 2 Empty I think....

Post  chicagokid43 on Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:18 am

I think the way the games ended helped My own sons somewhat smaller stat line balance out. He hit a big three that won the game for then in the first game. Although Mike O had huge numbers the big shot at the end was huge. As with the last game when Mike came back as the Sabers were clawing at the door. He sealed the door with some big hoops, ball control and knocking down free throws. To me it is often harder to decide when to score as a point guard without taking your team out of it. I really appreciated how Mike balanced that in two of the three fourth quarters. His turnover to assist ratio in the title game was very good as well.
That would be my thought on the Mitchell part of things. Plus I am his dad... lol

Mike O'Loughlin had the biggest game against the best opponent. If Mike O wasn't absolutely unconscious in the first game the other games would not have mattered. Maybe me not thinking that three of his fouls were actually fouls makes me write him a pass on not playing well in the last game. He never got a chance to get in the flow. His total points was the highest which I do not put as much weight in as some may but again the 31 he had in the first game was huge.

As for Jamie he has always lit up the stat sheet on both ends of the floor. This weekend was no different. I did not really count in the rebounds into my scenario which maybe I should although it is hard to say that rebounds for a point guard should be high when most of the time they are asked to cover back and look to be the outlet to run. The Souhegan game while he had a great stat line he also had some turnovers that may have taken away from some of what he did. He had a great week in Keene and if they named him MVP I would have been happy for him as I was for Mike O.
I do stand by what I say that you can make the argument that all three could have claimed the trophy and absolutely no doubt that all three should have been all tourney.

I do not want this to sound like a negative. I did come home and within ten minutes of being on the computer I had let Jamie know I felt he was right there and had a argument or deserved a piece of the award. It has been an absolute pleasure to see all of the boys work themselves into this position. So I by no means want to slight anyone the tourney was great and all three left a footprint on the tourney in my eyes.

I like many in Milford know how special this team is. These guys have been together since 4th grade. They know each other like the back of their own hands. They are a blast to watch and if there is anything negative about the situation is sometimes what one does over shadows the other. That is why when I see a player play well that maybe some would not notice I try to make sure they hear it from me...

Hope that helps you understand my train of thought... Happy New Year!

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Post  NHballer on Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:36 am

Basketballtime - I am confused on your addition on some of your stats, check your math...Mitchell had a total of 43 pts, not 52 like you mentioned, but that is besides the point. I think when you look at the overall tourney, Mike O got the MVP because he was the best player for 2 out of the 3 games. If what Chikid says is true, he really didn't play in that title game. Your own stats show that he played considerably less than the other players. You seem to glance over the fact that he played only 61 minutes in 3 games, while Holder played 76, and Mike M played 71. It is hard to play the game of what ifs, but lets say that Mike O played maybe 72 total minutes for the tourney, would his stats not have been considerably better?? If you compare head to head, like you did, Mike O to Holder - Mike O 4 more points, 1 less reb, 1 less assist, 3 less steals and 5 less blocks while playing 15 mins less. So I would say that the directors who voted on this probably took that into consideration. All three kids on this team play important parts, and again, when one had a rough night, the other 2 picked it up and helped get the win.

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Post  Tuesday and Friday on Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:54 am

Wow, I'm impressed with the time and energy of our NH Sports Forum-ites to break down the idiosyncrasies of the Chesire Tournament MVP award. With the new year upon us, maybe this MVP round table could turn their attention to figure out how to turn around the economy Laughing

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Post  chicagokid43 on Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:41 pm

I agree NHBALLER I think if you were at the championship game the entire gym (at least from Milford) thought Mike O was takien right out of that game.
I am not sure I agree with you that Mike O had a better game than Mike M against Coe Brown. Sure he showed more rebounds but Mike M did have 20 points on only 9 field goal attempts. Including shooting 75% from behind the arc. I think when a player shoots that kind of percentage and puts up those numbers in limited minutes you would have to have an argument. I know Mike O has the rebounds stat but as a point guard rebounds are hardly what is expected of you. Your first thought as a point is to get back on Defense and to be positioned for an outlet to start the break. So I do not put a ton of weight into the rebound stat individually.
I think this discussion is like any other that involves a award that is voted on. Much of it is perception and sometimes watching a game you can miss things. I can admit I missed the amount of steals Jamie had. I know he is a absolute mad man on Defense so I am not shocked by the numbers but while watching the game and not having the stats sheet it was something I missed.

Some real good games coming up for Milford over the next few weeks.Souhegan,Pelham,Portsmouth and Hanover should all be competitive games. So let's hope that all three bring the best games and continue to take steps to a repeat.

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2010 Cheshire Tire Holiday Festival - Page 2 Empty Good points NHballer

Post  basketballtime on Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:08 pm

You make some good points NHballer but from looking at the stats and from what Chikid said i would say it still looks like Holder had the hardest game of all in the finals. You mentioned that Mike O played only 61 minutes so that meant while he was sitting out of the finals Mikey and Jamie had to not only pick up for Mike o's loss but they had to play even more minutes on the floor correct? Then if i'm understanding this correctly Mikey hurts his ankle and only plays 24 minutes of the game so now we are down to one player having to take over the game in the finals against what you could call the the second best team in the tournament correct? I guess you could make the argument that Smithfeild RI was just as good as Soughegan as they also beat Lebanon by ten. But you would have to say that Mike, Mikey and Jamie would have a much easier time having a great game with all three of them on the court the whole game together as opposed to one guy having to do it buy themselves in the finals while having to play 31 out of the 36 minutes of the game on both ends of the floor correct? So that's where it gets confusing for me? I still would love to know how it's broken down when deciding MVP's, All stars or POY's because as you can clearly see there is so much more that goes on in these games don't you think? Basketball

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Post  chicagokid43 on Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:30 pm

No doubt having statistics like Keene provides for this tourney brings up the many stats that the common eye may not catch in the flow of the game. It was a crime for Jamie to not be all tourney team. No system is ever exact but if I am the rest of D2 you have to wonder what it takes to beat Milford. I think Souhegan will be a top 4 team come March and yet with Mike O playing less than half a game, Mitchell out for over a quarter and Scott McCallum gone for the year they were hardly able to scare Milford. The next four games will be very telling for Milford. Can they be as dominant against the next four opponents? Cannot wait to find out.

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Post  NHballer on Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:39 pm

I can understand your statements, but you were one that brought up the conversation about the statistics. If your going to say that it is not just all stats, then Chikid who was at the games, says Smithfield was the best team they played against. Mike O had the biggest game against them, 31 pts, 8 rebs, 5 steals, and 2 assists. I think your trying to have it both ways there. Chikid, I agree that pg's aren't counted on to rebound the ball and lets not forget MM's size as well, but when you look at the statistics again from that second game, one would have to say Mike O had the better game...20 pts, 7 rebs, 4 assists, 4 steals, versus Mike M 20 pts, 1 reb, 3 assists, 2 steals. So when you look at the total stats from the three of them, which they all played well the whole week according to Chikid....

MM -14.3 points, 1.3 rebs, 5 assists, 3.5 steals
MO - 19 points, 5.3 rebs, 2 assists, 3 steals
JH - 17 points, 5.6 rebs, 2.3 assists, 4 steals.

So, as stated earlier, similar stats between holder and Mike O, with Mike O playing considerable less time throughout the tourney(mainly the last game where he had 0 assists and 0 rebs). Plus, the game was probably closer then it should have been according to those who know the teams. I would venture to say, if Mike O had a normal game, it would have been a 25 - 30 point Milford win, would you agree?

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Post  chicagokid43 on Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:17 pm

one would have to say Mike O had the better game...20 pts, 7 rebs, 4 assists, 4 steals, versus Mike M 20 pts, 1 reb, 3 assists, 2 steals. So when you look at the total stats from the three of them....


I am not sure you can give the total edge of this. Mike O missed more shots and had more turnovers.. Mitchell is not a rebounder but not because of his size as much as where he usually is positioned on the floor. You can attest to this by looking at Jamies numbers when he was asked to play more of a point guard role while the other Mikes were injured. He played most of the game and no doubt playing more point guard when Mike M was out limited his rebounding role as well. Also not forgetting the shooting percentage. Mitchell had 20 points and only missed 2 shots... That is a huge output. Ball control, points, few turnovers and a outstanding shooting percentage. Once again stats do not always tell the entire story. When you play a totally different roll the numbers will obviously be tilted some.

I think it is neat to talk about these numbers though. As it really shows how well rounded both Jamie and Mike O are as players. They both do it all. Points,assist,rebounds and defense. Milford is a real lucky town to be able to see all of these guys over the last few years. Gym should be packed the rest of the year as teams like this do not come around to often.


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Post  NHballer on Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:53 pm

So should we exclude rebs from the conversation then? That doesn't make much sense to me. I could turn that around and say we should exclude assists from Mike O and Jamie since they are not exclusively the points guards...not buying this one. All three are guards.

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Post  basketballtime on Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:26 pm

I agree with most of what your saying NHballer however i was just told that Holder had some type of eye injury at the start of the first game and had trouble seeing the whole game? So now that i know that it makes this even more interesting. I also think you should look at the free throw line i think a lot of people leave that vital stat out the mix which is so wrong in many ways. First of all as we all know it's not very easy to get to the hoop and finish or get fouled consistently without an opposing coach making defensive corrections. Now if you look at Holders stat line for free throws he was there 24 times in three game while converting 17 of them and thats not including the fouls on him that did not put him on the line. Now you must also look at what that does for the team as a whole. When you drive to the hoop it allows your outside shooters more open shots and makes a defense collapse. It also puts the other team in foul trouble including their starting players all while working your team into a bonus situation at the line just ask Mike O. Now Holder in the finals was at the line a whopping 13 times converting 9 of them. And he did all of this like i mentioned earlier with Mike O spending very little time on the floor the whole game and Mikey hurting his ankle and also missing a lot of time on the floor. So while i agree with you NHballer on Mike O having a big first game does not really tell the whole story as i did not know Holder wasn't a hundred percent because of an apparent eye injury. So again stats are very interesting and i think there should be a way of disecting a game logically with stats and importance of the games being played and injury or foul trouble. So in my conclusion i can honestly say with full confidence that Holder should have been reconized and wasn't and again my concerns with that are what happens with these decisons being made for all the players in the state whether it be an MVP,All state or POY award i only wonder if they are including enough things in their decisions? scratch One last thought i don't know if the RI team was better than Souhegan or not, but if you want to do the stat thing there you would see that RI had a close game with lebanon but won by ten just like soughegan however RI also had a fairly close game with Plymouth who got wiped out by Coe Brown 71-44 then Milford wipes out Coe Brown 82-51 so was RI a tougher team then Souhegan or did Milford have a bad first game? Maybe Holders injury even affected that outcome of that game who knows? But no matter what they had all three players on the court the whole game in that one but only one full time for the finals? God i love stats cheers

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2010 Cheshire Tire Holiday Festival - Page 2 Empty Chikids interesting point

Post  basketballtime on Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:21 pm

I have to say i like Chikids point about who had a better second game Mike O or Mikey? And he's dead on with the shooting percentage Mike O went 8-15 and 2-6 for three pointers while Mikey went 7-9 and 3-4 so there is one of the biggest problems i have with these awards people seem to think if you put up some big numbers you must be the player of the game or tournament? How about the fact that Mikey and Jamie create a ton of shots for Mike O by driving the lane or fast breaks and so on? And while were talking about numbers what about shooting percentages? Defense? Rebounding? steals? blocks? free throw shooting? how about play making ability? I think this happens all the time people just look at big numbers and say wow thats a lot but what if you took someone like Shaq and he made twenty points off of free throws one game and thats all you knew? But then someone told you yes but he missed one hundred of them would that change your thought process a little bit? And thats why all the stats must be presented including discussions of game changing plays effort and the little things that might not show up unless you disect the game in many ways. How about the fact that game number two was against Coe Brown? Should Mike O have had a better shooting game percentage wise? Like i said there seems to be so many things that go on that truly are not in my opion being put into decision making and i don't know why? scratch

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2010 Cheshire Tire Holiday Festival - Page 2 Empty No I wouldn't say that however.

Post  chicagokid43 on Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:38 pm

I would not say that but I dont put as much weight in it with them being defensive rebounds... Offensive boards are much more of a asset to a team.

The other process that I notice is Mitchell had 20 on 7 for 9 with 3 assist.

Mike O had 20 on 8 of 15 shooting with 4 assist.

So if you assume that the assist were for 2 point baskets Mitchell accounted for 26 points on 12 possessions.
Mike O accounted for 28 points on 19 possessions.

So as far as offensive efficiency Mitchell accounted for two less points on 7 less possessions.
That is very efficient... lol

Don't make me get into points per Square inch... Mitchell runs away with that one! lol




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Post  Tuesday and Friday on Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:18 pm

Wow, the Chesire Tournament MVP discussion started LAST YEAR and is still continuing this year. Unbelievable. If I'm a parent of a team that won a holiday or state tournament I would just be happy about the TEAM winning the tournament instead of which INDIVIDUAL won the MVP award. All stats aside I kind of think team first and then everything else second.

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Post  basketballtime on Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:56 pm

Tuesday and Friday i'm sure the Milford parents are happy they won the tournament but i certainly wouldn't blame a parent for wondering how an award is given right? My original point was it seems like a kid that should have had some type of recognition did not recieve any and i have seen that happen many times through the years with different kids in different tournaments so like i mentioned earlier i'm still wondering what the criteria is for chosing an MVP, All star or POY award and i haven't heard anyone answer that question yet?

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Post  EBlessNHSP on Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:27 pm

Did they have an "all-tournament team"?

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Post  chicagokid43 on Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:03 am

MVP would have been a hard choice since there were so many good performances from one team. However to say Jamie should not have been at least all tourney is completely crazy. 26 in the title game and his defensive numbers are across the board solid. While there can be some debate about MVP no one should even think that Jamie wasn't deserving of all tourney team.
Basketballtime.. I cannot answer how Keene does the voting or decides the All tourney team but the other players that were named all tourney had great games for their team. I believe Jamie was punished for Milford having three top guys this week. There is clearly no other explanation. Whomever made the decision could not justify it even if they tried. Without saying we wanted other teams to have players get awards too.

T and F.... We are merely discussing this because I was thrilled with how well the three played this weekend. I think according to what position you are attracted too, which kid you have seen more of, what area of the game you give the most weight and if you think the 4th quarter crunch time holds more weight than the other quarters. So many variables.. Jamie got robbed and that is a fact.

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Post  chicagokid43 on Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:05 am

Yes sir... Mike O and Mike M made it and Jamie didn't. That is somewhat why this conversation started...

50+ points in three games, defensive numbers and assist as well. Keene missed the boat on the team.

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Post  nhhoopguy on Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:02 am

I think sometimes tournaments miss a player on an all tourney teams so other teams can have a player selected. Not my choice, but have seen it many times

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Post  NHballer on Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:13 am

Agreed....Jamie should have been on the team...the tourney probably has some rule in place about the number of players allowed on a team and so on. I think thats ridiculous if that is the case. A player should not be held off an all tourney based on a rule like that. This is an athletic event, and all kids are not equal. My opinion is to reward the best players, not make everyone feel happy by having a rule like that in place. As far as defensive rebs vs offensive rebs are concerned, I guess it all depends on how you look at that. If you don't close out the defensive possession with a rebound, you don't have a chance to run your offense. Plus, take a look at this years Celtics for example. They are the worst rebounding team in the NBA yet they have the 2nd best record(Number 8 as far as defensive rebs go.) I believe you pointed that out earlier Chikid with your post about rebound difference winning the game. I guess it all depends on the flow of the game. I was not in attendance, so I can not say if one player had easier looks than another or one player didn't convert on his opportunities.

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Post  NHballer on Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:15 am

Almost forgot, unless you have the stat sheet with the running tally, you cant use your math of possessions either. Were some shots taken on one offensive possession? Lots goes into this, and I definitely do not think the people who run the tourney think of all this when deciding a MVP or all tourney! LOL. We are going way to deep.

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Post  EBlessNHSP on Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:32 am

Here's an interesting article on what college coaches look for in a box score. Somewhat related because we're talking about how "well" these kids played based on their statistics.

http://www.kansascity.com/2011/01/01/2555292/data-mining-how-coaches-gauge.html

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Post  basketballtime on Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:09 am

That's what i'm talking about there are so many other things that are not looked at when chosing a player for an award. I was glad to read in the article how steals fall into place when talking about the importace of them to the outcome of a game. That was one of the glaring numbers that stuck out for me when seeing Holders stats. A i guess that's why i look at him not getting an award for helping his team to win the tournament as a failure in the system. Like i posted earlier he lead Mike O in all the stats except for points only to be reminded that by NHballer that Mike O only played 14 minutes of game three only to find out later that the first game Holder played he couldn't see out of one eye, and i still think it's harder to play with just one of them on the court then all three in my opinion. The other one was rebounding isn't he a gaurd? Those are big numbers for a guard and then the last one like i mentioned is how many times he went to the free throw line and how that effects both teams, so again we're missing something that is very much overlooked. All an all i think Milford is has to be the team to beat in all divisons. I got to see them play BG this year and was amazed to see how powerful they are they should have another great season good luck to them and may the NHIAA come up with a better system that makes it easier to award kids that deserve it. study

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Post  EBlessNHSP on Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:30 am

NHIAA has nothing to do with these holiday tournaments. As far as post tournament or post season honors go, somebody will always get left out, and there will always be a parent/fan upset about it. The "perfect" system does not exist, at least not one everybody can agree on.

In my humble opinion, giving this much attention to a subject that promotes individuality and self achievement is in direct contrast to what the game of basketball is all about, team play. But I certainly respect our NHSF communities opinions when it comes to this topic.

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Post  chicagokid43 on Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:27 pm

It is all great discussion about what players bring to the game and what is noticed by coaches and fans. All great talk and not bad for basketball at all. When you see how Milford plays the game and how unselfish they are you appreciate that. Seeing detailed stats is so rare we are really looking deeply into the numbers. I also think that most in the area know how talented Jamie is and the numbers he put up seem to reflect the obvious failure to recognize what he did in Keene. We are not taking anything away from anyone discussing this at all, we are not hurting the game. The boys on Milford all know that they have different strengths and are all capable of having a great day at any time. This discussion to them only shows how much all three bring to the table and if you asked any of them they will tell you the same thing. Win first, play the game the right way and respect what everyone brings to the table.
In fact this may be the closest thing we have had to a good discussion on here in some time, In my humble opinion.

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Post  Tuesday and Friday on Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:30 pm

Gee, humble pie must have been served at a lot of New Year parties this weekend because we have a lot of humble opinions Very Happy

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