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Turmoil at DWC (women)

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Turmoil at DWC (women)

Post  boxout on Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:23 pm

Has anyone read the NECC website, it seems that DWC woman's team has to forfeit 7 games 6 wins this season. The team now goes from being 22-2 to 15-9. They will no longer win the regular season conference. They will also not host any playoff games this season. It may seem small but this is lost revenue for both the school and the local economy.
The problem I have with the entire issue is the way colleges (at all levels) hide things. DWC is calling this a clerical error. This is a major error. That a school doesn't know that a student is ineligible to play is troublesome. I am not going to pick on the player, but she should have known she was not eligible as well. The rules regarding transferring are really not that difficult to understand. I have no law degree, and I can comprehend it. So how can a school that deals with thousands of students not understand.
This offense was academic related not playing eligibility. Someone should be held responsible, whether someone in the administration, athletics, or student body. Grades for athletes are something that should be checked and checked again. They should be checked religiously by the school, the athletic department, and the student. This situation happens at every level and happens way too much.

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Re: Turmoil at DWC (women)

Post  JT_nh_hs_fan on Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:10 pm

Some tough luck for the DWC women's team for sure.

You are going way out a limb to say the school hid it though. Obviously they made a mistake and when the error was discovered, they took the appropriate action. Exactly what do you think they did to hide it?

You also state the young lady in question should have known. the only way you say that is if her incoming GPA was obviously too low. Otherwise, I am not sure you can make that claim either. If she was told she was eliligble, why would she question it? We do not know exactly what it was academically that created the issue. Was it the GPA, or not enough required classes to be considered eligible. We simply do not know. I do not think it is large leap to say that most any athletes do not know the requirements (other than the obvious GPA level) if they were to transfer to another school. They are going to submit their transcripts and depend on the institutions to figure it out.

From the information out there at this point, the blame belongs solely on the DWC staff. If they made an error, even the coach would be unaware if he then checked the records. Apparently it was only discovered when they did their review. Now one can argue they can have more reviews. I do not believe they have had a history of these issues, so obviously their process has worked up to this point.

This is from the article in today's Nashua Telegraph

"According to assistant athletic director and school spokesperson Ken Belbin, sophomore forward Ashley Brodeur was mistakenly deemed academically eligible when she transferred from Holyoke (Mass.) Community College. In a review of all transfers’ academics in late January, it was found an administrative error had been made, Belbin said, and Brodeur was not academically eligible. An NCAA rule says that players who transfer in as academically ineligible must have “a year of residence” at the school they transfer to before being eligible to play.

Brodeur appeared in only 26 minutes of play. The school immediately contacted the NCAA and the NECC to inform them of the error.

“We deeply regret the error and the department’s administrative staff bears ultimate responsibility,” said a statement posted Thursday on the school’s website."

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Re: Turmoil at DWC (women)

Post  abball on Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:19 pm

Its a terrible thing to happen they had a 21 game winning streak, undefeated in conference and now are probably going to be the number 3 seed in the torney. There is no one elses fault but the schools. They should have know the young lady was not able to play. How do you mess that up? Thats just not right after all the time and effort those girls put in they have to forfeit 7 games just terrible.

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DWC Turmoil Continued

Post  boxout on Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:04 pm

Am I really going out on a limb with them hiding it now? Wow, this absolutely amazes me, they are still hiding it. Can you tell me what a clerical error is? Is it that the student got a D and it was put as a B? Or could it have been that the student was not full-time? Only taking 10 credits instead of the required 12 plus. Obviously in either case the student would know. Give me another reason. Not to mention the school certainly would know.
I would also bet you that any student athlete that cares about playing sports, know whether they are eligible or not. Why do we continually make excuses for students and athletic programs. A student also knows full well of their transcripts. Any athlete that is transferring, you bet they should know whether they are eligible or not. You don't even have to know your GPA, if you got 3 F's and 2 D's, for example, you are not eligible.
Those 26 minutes you quoted the Telegraph adds up to 7 games, no big deal right. I would be willing to bet she did a strange transfer, like in January. Hence she was not a resident at the college for one year after her transfer, now that I have examined the issue and the Telegraph article, that is probably what happened. If that is the case then the school, coach, and player all knew. If you notice the games in question started this semester.
Leave it to the new ITT school.

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FERPA

Post  Tulliver on Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:58 pm

Due to federal privacy rules DWC must be VERY cautious about what they say.

Students are afforded privacy - especially concerning grades and although it may not seem transparent, they have admitted fault - reported it - and taking consequences. I think it's a balancing act in accordance with FERPA rules which are quite serious.

A very unfortunate occurrence for DWC regardless, though.

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Re: Turmoil at DWC (women)

Post  JT_nh_hs_fan on Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:36 pm

Yes, indeed you are way out on limb. You are apparently unaware of what they are allowed to tell you. My point was they are NOT hiding it. When the error was discovered, it was disclosed. If they waited until the season was over then disclosed it, you would have a valid point. That is not what happened. What do you want, this young lady's transcript made public? Com'on

As I stated, IF it were a GPA issue, she should have known. YOU do not know of it was GPA or course requirements.

"Any athlete that is transferring, you bet they should know whether they are eligible or not. You don't even have to know your GPA, if you got 3 F's and 2 D's, for example, you are not eligible. "

You’re seriously over-simplifying your case, of course with what you gave for an example everyone would know. Perhaps she had a bad grade or two with some A's too. Now if one of those A's was in a course that DWC did not accept then it may have dropped her GPA below the eligibility line. Do you know what the course requirements are? What courses from Holyoke CC that DWC does not accept? There is much more to transferring that you tossing out there, especially from a CC.

Seriously, beyond this, what exactly would you have them make public, her entire transcript? If it were your kid would you want them to disclose all the details of their transcripts to the general public? As Tulliver stated, there are obvious limits to what can and cannot be disclosed. DWC followed proper procedure and rules once the error was discovered.

No one is making excuses. Can you point out a history of this at DWC? If not, then obviously their procedures were working fine. People do make honest errors, even in a situation like this.

"I would be willing to bet she did a strange transfer, like in January. Hence she was not a resident at the college for one year after her transfer, now that I have examined the issue and the Telegraph article, that is probably what happened. If that is the case then the school, coach, and player all knew. If you notice the games in question started this semester. "

Well, I'll take that bet! For someone who is so wound up about this you did not even take 2 minutes to look at the schedule on the DWC website. She played in the first game of the season on 11/15/10!

Please if your going to rant, get your facts straight!

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It gets worse

Post  boxout on Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:27 am

Wow you are right, the very first game she was ineligible. In my opinion the team should have forfeited every game that she was on the bench, not just games she played in.
You are making this way to difficult. The student knows her situation. Not sure if you attended college but the only people who didn't know their grades and GPA's were those who were flunking out.
Defend it all you want. I can see that clearly someone made a huge mistake. In my opinion it is worth someone losing their job over. This clerical errors in all sports needs to stop today. It is not that hard to keep track of 15 girl basketball players, that includes the coach, the player, and the staff. I never hear of this stuff at any Ivy League school.

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Re: Turmoil at DWC (women)

Post  JT_nh_hs_fan on Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:46 am

boxout

I am NOT defending it or making it difficult. I am very simply stating the facts. You seem to want to jump to conclusions all over the place on this one. Not sure why, but clearly you have an axe to grind on this issue.

"Not sure if you attended college but the only people who didn't know their grades and GPA's were those who were flunking out."

LOL, I have a BS and an MS and I have put 2 sons through college including one who did transfer. The things I brought up are real. There are at times some classes which one school does not accept from another for credit when you transfer. If you had ever experienced this, you would know that! Obviously from your comments, you do not know how it works at all. You can ignore the facts if you want, that is your choice. I have already attempted to raise your understanding of transferring. You want to make it ALL about GPA only and and there is more to it than that. You want to berate the player in question for not knowing while all you are doing is berating with speculation.

"In my opinion the team should have forfeited every game that she was on the bench, not just games she played in."

LOL, well, fortunately there are actually rules in place that are bit more appropriate.

"In my opinion it is worth someone losing their job over. This clerical errors in all sports needs to stop today. It is not that hard to keep track of 15 girl basketball players, that includes the coach, the player, and the staff. I never hear of this stuff at any Ivy League school."

Once again, you not listening then - there have been issues at Ivy League schools over ineligible players - including forfeits!

You may want to take a long look at the NCAA Transfer guide as well. There is a lot more to this you think - I guarantee you that!

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DWC

Post  boxout on Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:03 am

I really have no axe to grind with DWC, what you fail to want to accept and you clearly want everyone to realize that you need law degree to understand transferring. It is not that difficult. Please don't make assumptions about people you don't know. I did transfer, I knew all my grades, my GPA, and my transcripts. I even bugged the admissions,the Dean, at both schools. You ask why? Really simple. I didn't want to take any classes over again.
Please remember we are not talking about middle schol kids, here we are talking about a college student, that is also not a Freshman.
FYI the NCAA does not have specific rules for violations, it is a case by case situation. See Reggie Bush, see Cam Newton. Every case is different. That is why DWC put a self-imposed punishment. And contacted the NCAA to see if the punishment fit the crime.
Once again students know their own grades, GPA's, and transcripts. Transferring is not difficult at all. it is OK to make all the excuses in the world, millions of kids tranfer yearly, not all of them get their programs into trouble, not even half or third do. See with your comprhension of transferring all schools should be giving losses away left and right. It happens, but not to the extreme you seem to think.
Once again the school let down the student body, the coach clearly did no homework, as I stated keeping track of 15 girls' grades and eligibility is not difficult. Lastly, the player let the school, coaches, and teammates down. The person I feel bad for is the person who got cut, because this player had to play. Or teammates who had to sit for her to play. Bear in mind this is DIII school, no scholarships. Education is number 1 at DWC, not basketball. If they let this girl play early shame on them.
It wasn't just a clerical error, the school might have yes, doesn't excuse the player or better yet the coaching staff. Believe it or not they do have a staff.


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Re: Turmoil at DWC (women)

Post  JT_nh_hs_fan on Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:38 pm

boxout

I'm not sure you played sports in college or not, but you should indeed check out what I told you. Transfering is not, repeat NOT, as simple as you want to claim. If it were, then these issues would not happen. One of the things that document explains to student-athletes is to check school, conference and NCAA requirements. If it were all as simple is you seem to believe, a simple computer transfer of data and database comparison/check would yield results without human error (other than the grades themselves being in error). There is a real REASON why the NCAA publishes a document entitled "Transfer Guidelines".

As far as people making assumptions, that is all you have done from the beginning of this thread. Did you go back and check your Ivy League assumption?

"FYI the NCAA does not have specific rules for violations, it is a case by case situation. See Reggie Bush, see Cam Newton. Every case is different. That is why DWC put a self-imposed punishment. And contacted the NCAA to see if the punishment fit the crime."

No kidding, I am not now nor have I been debating the level of the punishment. Bruce Pearl & Tennessee put forth the 8 conference games suspension and the NCAA accepted it. This is pretty much standard practice when a violation is discovered. A few years ago, Maine's Hockey coach stepped down for a season as punishment for recruitng violations as a way of avoiding further penalties from the NCAA. The punishment itself is not the issue here, your claim was they hid it, then it was her fault for not knowing, now you going here.

"Once again students know their own grades, GPA's, and transcripts."

This is NOT in question, I am not sure why you feel the need to to state the obvious. Perhaps if you stated what her major is, what the requirements are, were all of her courses from HCC accepted or were certain classes & hence those grades deemed non-transferable. There are indeed things here you do not know, nor are you entitled to know. These are not excuses, they are laws & rules.

"See with your comprhension of transferring all schools should be giving losses away left and right. It happens, but not to the extreme you seem to think."

I have no idea what you are talking about with this statement.

"Once again the school let down the student body, the coach clearly did no homework, as I stated keeping track of 15 girls' grades and eligibility is not difficult."

Coaches rely on the admissions staff to tell them if a kid is eligible - your crazy if you think coaches are doing the verification on eligibility of every recruit or transfer. Do you honestly think they do that? That is why you have an admissions office & staff! You seem to think it is impossible for a human error to have occured here. I wish I had your ability to be above error in life.

"Lastly, the player let the school, coaches, and teammates down. The person I feel bad for is the person who got cut, because this player had to play. Or teammates who had to sit for her to play. Bear in mind this is DIII school, no scholarships. Education is number 1 at DWC, not basketball. If they let this girl play early shame on them."

Nice of you to "know" things you clearly do NOT know. I am well aware of what D3 is. Anyone playing in D3 is usually where they are for academics not just athletics. You should also be aware because there is no athletic money available, D3 schools tend to give athletes better financial aid based on academics. Coaches DO go in and try to get more money in academic aid/work study for the players they want in their program. So th ecoach does have involvement in the process, but they are not going to be over the shoulder of every other staff person double-checking that they are doing their job right.

This player made the team because the Coach felt she was better than those who did not make it.

I'm sure this young woman feels very bad that this has occurred and these consequences have been dealt to the program. Her name is out there in the public over this and she has to live with it. Can you say the same for your mistakes when it comes to your daily activities?


"It wasn't just a clerical error, the school might have yes, doesn't excuse the player or better yet the coaching staff. Believe it or not they do have a staff."

Are you insane? The school says yes, so the coach should question it? Based on WHAT exactly? You have absoultely ZERO evidence that the coach knew. Your are ASSUMING, that is all you are doing and all you have done since you started this.

Again I ask you, has DWC had a history of this?



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What?

Post  boxout on Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:37 pm

You are the one changing the argument, not me.
You clearly stated: "well, fortunately there are actually rules in place that are bit more appropriate". This statement is wrong, NCAA is done on a case by case situation. Rules? I think you mean there are punishments that are more appropriate, though that is not true, once again they are case by case. It is not like a parking ticket, where you pay $20.00. And you know the fine. They don't have a punishment book, of if player A plays 7 games, they lose all 7. No where is that written. If DWC were caught by the NCAA they probably would have forfeited every game. Once again she knows the amount of credits she is taking.
You actually keep making my point, that the player knew. I don't know her grade situation, but she does. I don't know her GPA, but she does, I don't know her Transcripts, but she does. And yes coaches do check on grades of their student-athletes. Any reputable coach does. Did Jerry Tarkanian, probably not. Does Mike K, you bet he does. See a responsible coach will do their best so a situation like this (DWC) doesn't arise. That is why they have a staff, the coach may not do it personally but a member of the staff does. I wonder if a tutor would tell a coach about the students grades, you're right, they leave it to admissions. Trust me, at a responsible school. Some coaches even require weekly updates from Professors that actually have to be signed by both student and Professor, on the last class of the week. Remember you aren't talking about the entire student body of a school, you are talking about a team.
I am wondering if the times have changed. Judging by your post, you must be over 60. Transferring is not that difficult, it happens all the time. Not every school has this issue, name me three teams at the DI level that has forfeited wins this year? It doesn't happen nearly as much as you claim. You make it sound like an epidemic, that everyone doesn't understand transferring. If it was as tough as you stated every school in the country would be forfeiting losses. But as you know transferring is not that difficult.
Most of your post is also very tough to comprehend, I see numerous contradictions. You continually change the argument. You have completely gone off course from my original post.
As far as a history of DWC doing this, I don't know. Of course they do now. But that was not my argument to begin with, that is you once again changing the argument.
Being a DIII school this player probably thought the NCAA wouldn't care, she tried to get away with it. Got caught. I am wondering if this person will transfer again.



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Lack of institutional control

Post  Thomas on Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:13 am

The athletic director and head coach are to blame in this case, and the whole mess falls in the category of lack of institutional control. I understand fully that the error could have been clerical, or also negligence on behalf of support staff, or something else. The actual errors may not have been the coach and Ad's fault, but they are their responsibility. Every single bit of documentation with regards to a players eligibility should be gone over in meetings before the season starts with the appropriate personnel (compliance officers, academic clearinghouse folks, whoever) in attendance. Maybe this did happen - I don't know. The point is it has to happen, because it all comes down on the coach

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Re: Turmoil at DWC (women)

Post  goldenbear on Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:09 pm

QUINCY, Mass. – No. 3 seed Daniel Webster College (18-9) earned an automatic berth to the NCAA Tournament with their victory in the New England Collegiate Conference Championship title game, 64-52 over No. 1 seed Lesley University (16-11) on Saturday on the campus of Eastern Nazarene.

Tournament Most Valuable Player Vanessa Bosques (N. Windham, CT/Windham) carried the Eagles offensively all day long, pouring in a game-high 27 points on 11-19 shooting and 3-7 from long range. All-tournament selection Sarah Paternostro (Glastonbury, CT/Glastonbury) added 12 points, seven rebounds, five assists and two steals, while Tonisha Tate (Lynn, MA/Lynn Classical) provided 13 points off the bench on 6-7 shooting.

So much for the turmoil

good job ladies


Last edited by Tulliver on Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:51 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Article snipped from http://athletics.lesley.edu/sports/wbkb/2010-11/releases/20110226nf6ew1)

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Still Wrong

Post  boxout on Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:31 pm

It is still wrong what this student, admissions, and coaches have done. Winning doesn't change a thing.

It amazes me that people actually support cheating in college athletics.


Last edited by Tulliver on Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Article was snipped and placed on site which is not a violation of copyright. Previous post was amended to include cite. Please direct concerns to mods or administrators as opposed to "calling out a poster". Thank you.)

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Boxout?

Post  chicagokid43 on Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:45 pm

Are you serious? Come on guy, someone made a mistake along the way in a D3 basketball program that was not caught. Let's not make this like it is a player who was getting paid or taking advantage of a situation. Someone missed the boat and the team forfeited some games but let's let it go and get on to respecting what the current girls are doing. Move on!

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Boxout?

Post  BeastMode2121 on Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:26 pm

Really, Boxout?,, I have a sister that plays a key role in this and you should be ashamed at some of the things you said..These girls have worked there ass of all of the past few years and turned this program around...This Brodeur girl would play "scrub" minutes at the end of the game, sometimes only about 45 seconds when they were up by 30 points.. They had to forfeit about 3 out of the 7 games when she only played less than 30 seconds.. ITS A DIVISION 3 PROGRAM, obviously someone made a mistake in the system, wether it was the girl or Daniel webster, but should the whole team be punished for it?.. Your acting like they purposely let it slip by so that they could win, because she was "Soooo good" or something, whereas she had no role on the team whatsoever..These girls went and won a championship and everyone trys to call them cheaters, be respectful of what they did.

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Re: Turmoil at DWC (women)

Post  EBlessNHSP on Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:56 pm

OK this thread is now under watchful eye. You guys can disagree all you want, do it civilly. Boxout - it's not plagiarism if you don't try to make money off of it. It's ok to quote articles or copy/paste them. Still - if you ARE going to post an article - just add in the URL you got it from. I'm sure the sites you take it from won't mind as long as you throw some traffic their way.

Boxout is entitled to his opinion here...just relax and post "sanefully"...for my sanity.

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beastmode?

Post  boxout on Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:19 am

I am not ashamed of the things I have said, it is factual.
Never questioned any of these girls work ethic on a basketball court, including your sister. Never made any remarks concerning any player other than the one in question. I think it was wrong of you to completely disparage this woman on this website though. You actually went as far as using her name. I am sure she is appreciative.
Doesn't really matter how much someone plays, they still played. The big thing is the girl practiced with the team, some of the most valuable players to a team are the ones that the starters play every day in practice. People want to overlook this and that is your opinion. But it is up to a college to keep an eye on a players grades, it has come out that this was grade related. The coaching staff should also be aware of every players transferring eligibility and their grades. Amount of playing time is meaningless, she shouldn't have played at all. If a player is questionable, which by transferring she is, you better make sure your ducks are in a row. No one did. If she wasn't valuable to the team, she wouldn't have played or been on the team. If this wasn't a big deal I wonder why DWC went to the NCAA over it? Why, because it is a big deal.
I often wonder if this would be treated the same way by members of this board if the school was in Arizona and they beat DWC, some how it would be different that I can wager.
As far as moving on goes, gladly. However some should heed their own advice.


Last edited by boxout on Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:28 am; edited 1 time in total

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Plagiarism

Post  boxout on Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:26 am

With all due respect The Assistant, plagiarism does not have to be for financial gain. There have been college and HS students who have turned in papers that are plagiarized, and they are not doing it for money. Plagiarism is the stealing of someones words or writing and not crediting them.

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Re: Turmoil at DWC (women)

Post  JT_nh_hs_fan on Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:13 am

Assistant,

My Appologies for not being around the last couple of weeks to keep more of an eye on this.



"It amazes me that people actually support cheating in college athletics."

Here is yet another foolish leap. No one is supporting cheating! Obviously everyone wants the system to be 100% perfect all the time. That is Utopia, not the real world. Most of us understand this. When people are involved, errors do actually occur. You simply want to go on & on & on about the school should have known. Since you apparently never found any other occurrence of this at DWC, it is appropriate to say that what ever policies they had in place must have been successful in making sure all the student-athletes were eligible over all these past years. Can you claim the same in your daily work?

An error occurred, it was discovered, it was disclosed & penalties were imposed. That is the way things work in the world.

No one has disparaged her more than you during this discussion. Her name was already in the public forum after the school disclosed this. In all fairness to Assistant, there are more people reading the Nashua Telegraph than there are reading these forums. You have gone out of your way in just about every post to say she should have known thereby insinuating time after time that she must have known she was not eligible and therefore did it on purpose. Unless I have missed some confession on her part, you have zero evidence of this. She has been held accountable as has the school.

I have already gone over this more than I should have as a moderator here. Perhaps you should just notify the NCAA that this was a deliberate attempt by DWC to cheat and that they should toss the entire season.

As Chikid said - Time to move on. If you want to keep this up I'm sure there are some who will want to continue to debate this with you. Since I got this deeply involved, I will leave it up to the Assistant to decide if the thread has run its course.


I for one want to take this time to congratulate the DWC women's team for putting this behind them and winning the automatic bid into the NCAA's. Best of luck to them!

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End Of The Road

Post  boxout on Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:10 am

A tumultuous season for the DWC Lady Eagles is over, the team fell to the 11th ranked University of Rochester Yellowjackets at the Palestra, by a score of 70-52. DWC fell behind early and never really got back into the game. Trailing early by a score of 19-14 with 9:33 left in the first half the Yellowjackets went on a 20-2 run to put the game away. The duo of Jodie Luther and Michelle Ketchman finished with a combined 28 points to lead Rochester. Venessa Bosques led the Eagles with 18 points. The Yellowjackets went into the game with the thought of letting Bosques do her thing and tighten up on the rest of the Eagles. The plan worked to perfection. Rochester will now face Mulenberg College of Pennsylvania who slipped by Williams College 64-63. The Eagles with leave Rochester knowing they had made their first NCAA tournament.

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DIII Women's basketball scandal....whooda thunk it?

Post  boxout on Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:11 pm

Now I know I was frowned upon with my opinion of DWC last year. And I also know that the story is not about DWC, it is still interesting and relevant. Cheating goes on everywhere.

http://www.nj.com/sports/njsports/index.ssf/2011/07/dalessandro_as_ncaa_investigat.html

This school Kean University is just a wonderful place, more turmoil here:

http://www.nj.com/sports/njsports/index.ssf/2011/10/kean_womens_basketball_player.html

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Re: Turmoil at DWC (women)

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