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Athletic funding in difficult financial times

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Fresham Tournament?

Post  boxout on Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:39 pm

This is going to sound mean, but what a waste of tax payer money. A freshman tournament? Some of these players will never play JV, even more will never play Varsity, and even more will never play again. My point is when is it time to tell a child their sports career is over? I see many middle schools now have A and B teams, another waste of taxpayer dollars. There use to be days when you actually had to make/tryout for teams, now a days they just add another team.
Take AAU for example, back in the day, you had to be good to play AAU, you actually had to be at least in the top 15 in the state to even play on the team. Now there are AAU teams everywhere. It is not what it use to be. There are teams in AAU that have players who don't even play HS ball.
Don't get me wrong in some ways I think it is great that more kids get to play longer, but where do we draw the line. In some ways it reminds me of American Idol, people tell these kids how great they are, and to keep playing, when someone should tell them that this is probably your last season.

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Re: Athletic funding in difficult financial times

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:12 pm

I'll just relay a story I know about from a team in the last few years. A player was on a freshman team. He got cut on JV as a soph. He busted butt and played summer league before his junior year and made the varsity as #11 or #12 player. He busted butt again the next summer and became a key role player for one of the better teams. He actually won 2 games for the varsity team his senior year by scoring key buckets late in the games. He worked his way into the rotation of 8. Would he have been there his senior year as a key player if he didn't have the chance of playing freshman ball? You can make that determination. It would be tough for a player to contribute to a program if he or she didn't have the chance to get in on the entry level of a freshman team.

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Re: Athletic funding in difficult financial times

Post  Hoopfan4 on Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:26 pm

Sorry Boxout, but you are way off base with that post. If kids were told they weren't good enough to do something between the ages of 13 -15 where would we be? All of these kids are still developing physically at these ages and while some stand out early on (and may already be playing at the JV or Varsity level) most freshman are not at that level yet and this is where they put in their work to try and get there. You never know where those hidden gems might come from in a few years - did you ever hear Mike Romps from Dover talk about how Alex Burt was cut from a number of travel / AAU teams in his early years? If it wasn't for all of the extra AAU teams out there (you know the ones not limited to the so called top 12 - 15 players in the state) there wouldn't places for kids like that to keep playing even after somebody deems them not good enough. Heck, even if they don't play JV or Varsity down the road - they are competing now as part of a team that has been practicing and playing games since the beginning of December. I have no idea how you make the leap from kids playing in a freshman tournament to people telling kids how great they are, etc. - this is part of the development for all of the participating high schools JV / Varsity teams down the road and gives the players some experience in a playoff format. I personally don't have any problem whatsoever with a freshman tournament - I think it's a great way for 18 or so teams to end their season. Plus I don't think it costs the taxpayers a dime (and I really wouldn't care if it did to be honest since I don't think it would cost all that much) - Central hosts it and charges admission to all the games, which as noted earlier, serves the dual purpose of helping refs earn their patches. Seems like a win / win on many different fronts, so it's really hard to figure out where you're coming from with your comment.

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Not tax payers supported?

Post  boxout on Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:31 pm

Please explain that one. The school is owned by tax payers, the buses are supported by taxpayers, freshman teams are supported by taxpayers, now you tell me who is 100% funding this event? How many years has this tournament been held? Just saying years can be misleading, is years is it 40 or is it 7?
I respect the kid who worked his butt and made an impact on the varsity team, I really do. But for that one story you just mentioned, I can give you 1,000 that didn't turn out that way. You know as well as I do, that 99% of kids who don't start at least as a Freshman at the Freshman level are not going to play again. To be more specific, the 9th-14th man on a Freshman team are probably never going to play again.
I do agree that it is a great way for a teen to spend an afternoon, but again when is it time for these kids to start entertaining themselves. What did kids do thirty years ago, when there was no AAU, no Freshman tournaments, no two middle school teams, no indoor courts, accept for at local school.
You know what they did? They played in the parks, there were plenty of Saturdays that were spent shoveling off public courts to even play in February. Again I do agree great way to spend a Saturday, however, if they were that committed they don't need a tournament to play. Remember that 99% of all NH High School hoop players will never play major college ball. Many don't even play DII. Some play DIII, but don't get me going on DIII basketball. At that level there are schools that have players who never played in HS. I had a buddy went to Emerson College, never played any level of HS basketball and started at Emerson. My point is to play DIII you have to want to play, the school also must have your major, remember no scholarships. I have said this before and I will say it again, there are DI schools that intramural basketball that is better than DIII. These kids went for an education, not to play basketball. For example, you have a chance to major in Communications, and not play basketball, are you going to go to Syracuse or are you going to go to Emerson? I would bet most kids pick Syracuse.


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Hoopfan 4

Post  boxout on Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:43 pm

Really I am way off base? It is called cuts, been a part of basketball for years. Millions of kids at the ages of 13-15 have been told at that undeveloped age, they aren't making the team. But I can tell that your attitude is to have as many teams as possible so every kid can play. I give credit to any kid who makes the team for Varsity that got cut from Frosh or even JV. But is is rare, and to think that having some Frosh tournament is the reason why someone made the team is inaccurate. It was done in the player's own time. I would be willing to bet that Alex Burt took a thousand or more shots a day, on his own time. Practice, Practice, Practice. Just playing summer ball is not going to make the 6th man on Frosh become a starter on Varsity, it is hard work and once again practice. Basketball is one sport that you can do by yourself. You are not going to learn to shoot with your left in a game, it is practice. You are not going to learn to dribble behind your back or through your legs in a game, it is practice.
To the person who thinks I am against Freshman basketball, I am not. I am against a Frosh tournament. Frosh is for development, winning and losing is secondary. I think every school if they can field it, should have a Frosh team.

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Re: Athletic funding in difficult financial times

Post  Hoopfan4 on Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:03 pm

Relax - you're the one that brought this subject up anyway. I know for a fact that most school teams are now doing all sorts of fundraising throughout the year to help offset the costs of their particular programs, plus the point wasn't really the cost side of it at all anyway. I just don't understand the thought process of telling kids to give something up or they're not good enough - if they lose the desire or can't keep up with the competition, that's going to happen on its own. We only go around once, why feel the need to throw a towel on anything that is productive and positive for the kids, especially in the day and age we live in now?

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Re: Athletic funding in difficult financial times

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:38 pm

Amen, Hoopfan4, Amen.

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Re: Athletic funding in difficult financial times

Post  goldenbear on Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:22 pm

Mike Chroney a D one player for Braynt was cut from the Freshman team at Elm St when it was 7-9 grade school.

The next year the split happened in Nashua and he made the JV team at South then got called up to Varsity that year he grew about 5 inches and was a darn good HS player. As a Freshman he was 5-7 and was not a good dribble but he grew and stuck with it.

That is why Freshman teams are important because of a thing called puberty. Some 14 years of of not gone through yet but are good enough basketball players to play Varsity once it happens.


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For that matter why have any type of exercise at all?

Post  basketballtime on Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:34 pm

This country is exploding into an overweight epidemic nightmare and you want to take more activities away? What's next take gym away? Hey boxout did you ever hear of a kid by the name of Holder? He was cut by the JV coach/ex JVcoach freshman year even though he played and started since 3rd grade with the likes of O'Loughlin,Mitchell,Desmaris and Nelson. I guess anyone who knows anything at all about sports and the growth of a teenager is smart enough to know they change drastically from freshman year to senior year and there are many examples of this believe me.

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Two sides of this

Post  chicagokid43 on Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:16 pm

I believe that there is some validity to what Boxout is saying for smaller schools. I think some smaller D2 schools like Pelham have already went to just JV and varsity teams. It all comes down to the depth of the talent at the school. I do think there are times when only two teams are needed. I do agree that many of the freshmen teams do carry players that only play freshmen and will never be more than a jv player. So if money is tight I can understand someone saying a school district could save some money and have only two teams. May be a little different in the big city but in small towns it could definitely be done to save cash. I also think there is a way for this to be done cheaper with parents footing more of the bill. Freshmen teams could be given the option to have a team but provide their own transportation to away games. If your really looking at money spent vs results of the program I can understand the argument in some cases.

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Holder

Post  chicagokid43 on Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:40 pm

I hear what your saying about Jamie BBTime but that was not about talent it was about a coach with a grudge. That year you could argue that Jamie deserved to be on varsity as I felt with Mikey as well. As for overweight kids needing programs for staying in shape I would say once again their is a cheaper way to do so for many smaller schools. Again I am talking small schools I think the bigger schools should always have the numbers for three teams.
The real question for the smaller towns is could you use your travel programs just as well to give these kids a chance to play with the parents eating more cost with fees and transportation being on them. I have not done the numbers as far as cost but my senior son wanted to take a extra math course this semester and was told the classes were full. If we cannot afford to fit one extra kid into a class for education we should be doing everything possible to cut cost on the smaller situations to correct that.

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Not an excuse at all!

Post  basketballtime on Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:43 pm

Taking activities away from kids in my book is a crime. Many kids do nothing but hang out without some kind of activity so just to use an excuse like it cost to much is sad. Let's ask everyone a simple question, what does a kid do when they no more outlets that keep them out of trouble? What kind of shape both mentally and physically do these kids turn out to be when there is no more activities because of money? How much does it take to ge a troubled kid turned around from drugs,gangs or whatever else they get into because there is noting else to do? How will medical bills in the future for health care or thier future endeavours in life due to their obesity issues effect them? I guess you get my point there are a lot of kids out there that may not be talented enough, ready or for that matter good enough ever to play jv or varsity sports but that doesn't mean they don't want to play just as bad as the kids that can. But to say they can't is a shame. Can you imagine if they did that with grades in school???

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Re: Athletic funding in difficult financial times

Post  nhhoopguy on Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:42 pm

How would you like to be a school the size of Pinkerton and have no Freshman program!
They have a ton of kids go out for that team every year.

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Re: Athletic funding in difficult financial times

Post  EBlessNHSP on Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:20 am

Freshman teams are a HUGE part of every schools feeder program that has one. HUGE. Surprised this is even a discussion. Boxout you can voice your opinion but I doubt you'll find many supporters. Would you rather those kids who don't make JV be out on the street in the afternoons? Looking for something to do? Even if it WERE 100% taxpayer I would think it to be a valuable use of community resources.

It's not always just about basketball. The team atmosphere promotes unity, respect, teamwork, and helps build core values in young men and women, amongst many many other things. No brainer.

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Every Program is different

Post  chicagokid43 on Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:45 am

Every program is different. I do not think a school should feel they have to have a freshmen program unless they feel the freshmen class is so deep with talent that they would be cutting players that would still be eventual varsity players. I see part of the argument that Boxout is trying to make. If we are running a freshmen program and spending X amount of dollars is it actually worth it. Unfortunately with schools looking at cutting teachers,teachers aids and even other programs it is a fair question. Milford was asked to cut 10,000 dollars from their program last year and many things were looked at. Fortunately the school board convinced the town to reduce that number and it saved several programs. I personally believe that eventually all sports will be paid for by the parents and at that point the families will decide if it is worth it. Until then I have no problem with the thought process Boxout is using. If a schools talent level is so deep that players that every year they have 8-12 eventual varsity players trying out for the freshmen team I say you can argue that the program is needed. If you are actually running what is actually a rec program to keep 9th graders out of trouble that is another story in itself. However I think that the towns and the schools can work together to make sure that these kids have a chance to still play wether it be travel 9th grade teams or including 9th graders that do not make the jv team a chance to play with the 7/8 grade teams in the rec league. This at least puts the funds back on the families as well as reducing cost. Lets keep in mind most rec programs pay the referees 30-35 a game where as the high school fee is higher. In these times there is nothing wrong with analyzing how we run our athletic programs and making sure the money is being used logically. Again this is a situation that can be different from town to town.

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Re: Athletic funding in difficult financial times

Post  EBlessNHSP on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:42 am

ChiKid I think some of your points are valid. This makes for good discussions lots of School Boards are probably having the same one behind closed doors.

I do not think a school should feel they have to have a freshmen program unless they feel the freshmen class is so deep with talent that they would be cutting players that would still be eventual varsity players......If a schools talent level is so deep that players that every year they have 8-12 eventual varsity players trying out for the freshmen team I say you can argue that the program is needed.

With that thought process would you not get rid of the JV program as well? Every year there are kids that played JV, typically sophomores at the time, that will not make the Varsity squad as Juniors.

My question would be - how do you know who's going to be a varsity talent in 9th grade. Sure there are some players where it's obvious they will or won't. The whole point of the Freshman and JV programs is to nurture these kids as both players and teenagers to prepare them for the next level of basketball (JV, Varsity) and life (being a young adult). Yes, as a coach, there are many values you are a part of instilling in these kids even at the Freshman level.

If you are actually running what is actually a rec program to keep 9th graders out of trouble that is another story in itself.

Nobody is saying it would be a rec program. What my point is having a freshman team helps do the things I just mentioned above, and a byproduct is kids are kept off the street and out of trouble after school. It's a very good by product one would argue.

I think we're getting into a bigger discussion about sports and young people in general. Lots of communities are going through the headaches these days to cut costs and save the taxpayer money. In many cases sports are some things to go. To play devils advocate, would you rather cut Freshman basketball, or Junior High Band? It's a valid question, and again, many communities and school boards are having to make this decision. Tough.

I played Freshman basketball in 9th grade, started on JV as a sophomore and started on Varsity as a Junior and Senior. I would say the system worked pretty well for me. But I know each situation is unique.

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Priority

Post  basketballtime on Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:10 am

Let's take a school like Milford, i would imagine they threw all of their money away on their new football stadium they just had to have. So my question would be is that a bigger priority than let's say girls softball or for that matter girls basketball or a freshman team and so on? What should Milford or any high shcool cut next if they can't pay their bills?I don't care about all the different excuses schools come up with we as a society have to do better much better. So no matter the situation anytime you do away with these activities its a loss for the community the schools the parents and most of all the children, and no matter what there's nobody out there that could ever change my mind on taking such important things away from children period.

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Re: Athletic funding in difficult financial times

Post  EBlessNHSP on Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:40 am

Basketballtime...simply stated, great post.

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Out On The Streets

Post  boxout on Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:40 am

Guys you're really stretching it. These kids have plenty of chances to play. There are even private places, The Sports Zone, Hampshire Hills. Name me a town that doesn't have a place like that. Even if their town doesn't the next town over does. They are within drivng distance. My point is there are places to play that doesn't burden the taxpayer. I am sorry but two middle school teams at the same school is a waste of money. I give Central credit for hosting the tournament, just not sure it is cost effective. Trust me on this Central did not pay for every team to travel that tournament. Even the host, Manchester taxpayers were burden, by some amount. Once again there are public courts in every town. Yes you can shovel them.
You guys keep bringing up these one or two players of a player being cut and then making Varsity, geat stories, I am proud of those kids, but they are rare. Another reason some kids may have been cut is grades, how about attitude in classes? Kids are cut for many reasons not just lack of talent. ChiKid gets where I am coming from.
What does Central have 2,500 kids? V, JV, F, both sexes. So let's say each team has 15 kids, that is 90 kids out of 2,500. So are you really telling me now that the 100-200 kids who got cut are now hanging out in the streets, really? Maybe we should have teams for these kids. They are the same age and still also developing. These players who tryout and never make it have feelings too. But you know what most of them don't hangout on the streets, they find other things to do. Such as band, wrestling, student council, etc...or maybe even a job.
I do agree we live in an obese society, I have even noticed it in HS, there more overweight kids playing HS sports than ever before. However not becoming obese is a lifetime commitment, not just HS. To be honest with you proper exercise should be well instilled in a child before they hit HS. Funny to even bring up this issue, twenty years ago we we're a skinnier society, and kids then actually had less oppurtunities for sports. Take HS football, you know how many schools that did't have football 20 years ago and do now? I can name at least 10.


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Re: Athletic funding in difficult financial times

Post  Tulliver on Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:44 am

Please include how Manchester tax payers were burdened?
You make that statement but cannot and do not back it up.
Look into the budget please before you make statements about tax burdens.

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Tulliver

Post  boxout on Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:08 am

Nice post, why don't you show me how it does't burden the taxpayer. You even mentioned a budget if it is in the budget then it is taxpayer supported. Once again did the CHS pay for every team to be there out of a private fund? Just opening the gym is tax burden, heat, electrcity, transportation, etc...Did you all strip the floor, sweep it, ten wax it? Trust me some amount of this tournament was tax payer paid.
You sound completely naive. I am also going to bet you have a dog in the fight. Whether that be you have child playing, a coach, or referee, maybe even CHS grad. Of course a ref is for the tournament, they can get their patch and make some money.
FYI School taxes are paid at three levels, Town, State, and Federal. Now I may not pay taxes to the city of Manchester, but I do pay State and Federal, which helps every school in state with state taxes, and every Federal tax we pay supports every school in this country, even private. Yes, private schools get Federal money.

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Re: Athletic funding in difficult financial times

Post  Tulliver on Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:18 am

My point is that the tourney is NOT in the budget at all...because the fees are all paid through the fundraising set up by the program.
If the building weren't used for the tourney that day... it would have been open for practices... so the heating and electricity and floor use is a wash. In fact, considering the number of teams and programs that usually use the building... it might have received less use!

Manchester does not bus freshmen to the tourney. Manchester children get there by parents (either the parents themselves or whatever arrangements are made by those parents... carpooling, public busing etc).
How other teams from outside Manchester get there, I don't know... but it does not come out of the Manchester budget.

Manchester broadcasts its Athletic Comm meetings and minutes and agendas are published within a few weeks of the meeting. I read them all and watch the meetings. No extra requests have been made to offset this tournament. It is self sustaining.

I've actually been quite open about working at CHS but no, I don't have a child and I don't coach.... no pony in the race.... so there's really nothing hidden about my post at all.

What I disagree with is your original (or one of them) statement that it was a cost to the Manchester taxpayers.

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Re: Athletic funding in difficult financial times

Post  Hoopfan4 on Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:30 am

I have to say that again the arguments of Boxout and now Chikid just don't make sense to me. We are talking about schools that have freshman programs and are choosing to participate in the season ending freshman tournament. Whatever the costs are, they have already been factored into the cost of these programs and as I said earlier these teams do lots of fundraising during the year to help offset not just the cost of this event, but the entire program. Chikid - if a town is too small to support a freshman team, nobody is saying they should be forced to have one - that is a decision that will be made by that school board and those taxpayers. That is not what we are talking about here. Boxout started this whole discussion by saying it was a waste of money for those high school teams / towns that already have freshman teams to play in a tournament and further went on to say that these kids should be given the cold, hard dose of reality that they are probably not that good and need to be told this is probably the end of the road. Both of those arguments are what everybody seems to be in complete disagreement with. Let's also not forget something else Boxout - even if there are other alternatives for kids to play the game, there is absolutely nothing like putting on your school colors and getting out there representing your high school / town (and I'm not talking about joining the band or debate team if basketball is what somebody really wants to do). If this in fact is the only opportunity some of these kids will have to play for their high schools, all the more reason for these teams / events to take place if it works for that town in terms of cost (again determined by those school boards / taxpayers). Each town with teams participating in the freshman tournament have already decided that these programs do work for them and I couldn't disagree more with knocking the event as simply as a waste of money because many of these kids may not have that much longer to play due to their abilities - especially for those that may not have a chance to put on their school colors to play the sport of basketball again.

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What?

Post  basketballtime on Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:36 pm

Boxout you actually posted this?
You guys keep bringing up these one or two players of a player being cut and then making Varsity, geat stories, I am proud of those kids, but they are rare.

Everyone knows that kids drastically change physically and mentally from their freshman year to varsity year in fact all of them do one way or another. And there are kids that are stars early on because of it but come senior year they don't see much time at all on the playing feild because of the other kids maturing and catching up on that end of it. What i can't believe is this is still being dicussed and would love to see if it was boxout's kids or chikids kids that were the ones being cut if they might have a different thought on this???

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Would I feel Different sure

Post  chicagokid43 on Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:40 pm

Would I feel different if mine were cut sure but that still does not mean that we as a community could justify the cost. As I mentioned earlier my son was denied taking a extra class this year because we did not have a extra teacher available. So maybe in your eyes I should worry more about the two freshmen that may be effected by not having a freshmen basketball program but it all comes down to priorities. If our AD was asked to cut cost would you want them to cut a jv Field Hockey team or a Freshmen basketball team? I am in favor of having a program available for any kid that wants to play a sport but I do not think it has to be school funded. If you are truly worried about your freshmen son playing basketball there is always a way to get him training and there are other leagues in which the family could foot the bill. At some point asking everyone to help pay the bill for the chance opportunity that one or two players will go on to play for the varsity team. All of us should have a say on what our tax money is used for and if given the choice to add a teachers aid or keep another jv program going my choice would be easy. Again every school is different.

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