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Are Player Rankings in NH Worthwhile?

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Are Player Rankings in NH Worthwhile?

Post  EBlessNHSP on Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:41 pm

Interesting piece in the Telegraph today from Gary Fitz that I think warrants it's own thread. He mentions how much coach's hate player rankings right off the bat.

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/sportshighschoolsports/903144-221/north-has-found-itself-real-keeper.html

It's an interesting point, and I'm wondering if you all feel the same. I think the point is not necessarily player rankings in general, but player rankings in New Hampshire. Player rankings for prep-school athletes, and legitimate DI and DII talent is warranted IMO. NH's problem is we don't have a lot of those, not nearly enough to compose a list from. Ranking 15 and 16 year old kids in out state in this age of technology tends to go to their heads I think (based on my coaching experiences).

On the other side - the rankings do promote the sport in the State, which is good and important to improving our players, and producing more of that DI and DII talent.

From a coach's perspective however it's obviously a nightmare that they have to walk into a practice with two kids talking about how one is higher ranked than the other, and basing perceptions of their teammates and opponents based on those rankings, which in some cases are just a single persons opinion.

This is not intended as an attack on any particular website (there are multiple websites that "rank" NH high school basketball players - and I 100% support the idea of freedom of the Internet) but more of a conversation on the topic as a whole. States such as NY, CA, NC, FL and TX can easily support this notion of ranking their high school players based on the quantity and quality of the top 50 players in the state year in and year out.

I'm curious how others perceive the subject. Is there such thing as too much exposure? Or am I off my rocker?

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Re: Are Player Rankings in NH Worthwhile?

Post  EBlessNHSP on Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:59 pm

Here's an interesting stat...not a pretty one either unfortunately for the Granite State.

There are a total of 7,177 mens basketball scholarships available in the NCAA alone - How many of those scholarship players played in NHIAA basketball last year? Answer: 0.

Please, somebody correct me if I'm wrong - are there any DI or DII scholarship players who played for a NHIAA team in 2009-2010? (FYI there are no scholarship players in DIII)


Last edited by The Assistant on Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Yes there are.

Post  basketballtime on Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:49 pm

Let's try to and remember there are kids like Kaleb T, Jordan L , Carson Derosier, and Scott King that have all recieved or will recieve d1 offers, but because of the lack of depth of talent in NH they chose the correct patch of Prep school. Now when it comes to ranking players i think it's all a part of the sport and other sports for that matter whether it be football, basketball or other sports it really is no different then winning a race in track or swimming for the best time and so on. The whole thing comes down to competition. Should we eliminate the honor role or grades in school too? In every part of life there is a rating system and if you do things right as a parent and coach you can help these kids in the process. One last thing it will be the final decison of either college coaches and academics office to place kids in college so let that will be the best rating of all if thats what your looking for. Maybe we should do basketball rankings from an independent outside source such as a college coach or assistant that has seen what it takes to play at the higher levels?

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Re: Are Player Rankings in NH Worthwhile?

Post  EBlessNHSP on Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:58 pm

Winning a race (track/swimming) and making the honor role are measurable based on pre-requisite criteria. In a race you place, nobody is critiquing you based on opinion.

The honor roll is measured based on industry/scholastic accepted criteria including test scores, etc.

I think the better analogy to make your point might be for a student to write a paper, and the teacher to provide them a grade based on the teachers interpretation of the students work. That's a similar situation because it's one person critiquing a individuals performance. (which i'm now realizing helps or hurts the individuals ability to make honor roll)

I see your point - and that's why I'm not proposing these websites stop what they're doing (freedom of the Internet again - is that a topic these days or something?). I thought Gary brought up an interesting point an there are arguments to be made from the perspective of the coach, parents, schools, websites that do the ranking, state in general, and of course, most importantly, the player.

I'm not sure if it's good or bad for the player, I guess I'll find out in about 15 years when the Assistants Assistant is a freshman (unless of course she's into ballet - but I'm sure there are rankings for that too somewhere!).

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All different criteria.

Post  basketballtime on Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:08 pm

There are many types of criteria including grades that teachers give you on projects all way to pre-requisite situations such as winning a race. And that was my point. Let me ask you something if your kid tried out for the varsity team and didn't make it is that not the same as ranking someone? How about if your kid did make the team but sits the bench every game is that not ranking a kid? It happens all the time if life and thats my point you can't just sweep it under the rug and say its OK Johnny don't worry about it the coach or teacher or boss doesn't know what they're doing? The winners in life take it as a challenge and work harder whill others fail by taking the path of blaiming everyone else. So as parents you must help your child through this process and not go down the path of blaiming everyone all that will do is make the kids give up and not learn from their weaknesses. I have seen enough kids put situations where one year they are on the bottom of the list but four years later they are near the top or at the top and the reason why is because they were willing to work harder and not quit on themselves. Are there situations as a parent you can see your kid not being able to play at a certain level? Of course and that's why it's important to guide them into the right situtions. Maybe they won't be a varsity basketball player but turn out to be a great golfer or artist and so on but one thing you must be willing to do is make them a student first because as we all know that is the only way they can achieve high goals in life.

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Ranking

Post  8992 on Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:47 pm

It was an interesting article and it makes some very good points.

I don’t put a lot of stock in these player rankings and the college coaches I have talked to don’t either. They have certain player needs for their team, they have certain types of players they want, they have admissions departments that have certain criteria depending on the academic level of college you’re trying to get accepted into. You could be a great player but if you can’t make the academic requirements you don’t get in.

Some of these player rankings, that I have seen, won’t give their criteria for the rankings, or their qualifications for making these rankings. Just because you watch a lot of basketball doesn’t make you and expert.
Others are decided by one individual who has seen less then 50% of the kids compete. Then they tell you they have only seen this % of kids play once.

“In every part of life there is a rating system and if you do things right as a parent and coach you can help these kids in the process.” You hit the nail on the head basketballtime!


It would be interesting to see how NH basketball scholarships awarded compare to the number of baseball scholarships, football scholarships, hockey, track & field…..etc in NH?

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Re: Are Player Rankings in NH Worthwhile?

Post  HaleyNHsports on Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:35 pm

I think we're missing the point here.

Your ranking kids that are going to, 8 times out of 10, play intramurals in college. The reigning Class L player of the year is playing baseball in college and the runner-up is the 8th man at Plymouth State, a slightly above average Division III school.

The reason why the sites that rank players do this is to add content to their site so you will read it. They don't have standings, box scores or statistics so their content is what they added that day. For 24/7 content they need something like player rankings, otherwise there would be nothing but some game summaries.

To say your ranking them based on how their skills will translate at the college level is a joke because they are not going to play in college! Maybe 6 or 7 kids will play any form and 4 or 5 of those will quit after year one like Curtis Williams, Justin Hojlo, Jason Chevrefils etc. There is nothing wrong with that either, playing basketball in men's leagues, intramurals or a 3 on 3 tourney with some buddies is great, its enjoying the game you love. To rank kids 1 to 50 or even 1 to 20 like this is Texas or California is absurd. The most important thing is the kids, the team element and the coaches involved. The rankings of kids that are going to be play intramurals is a joke, and coaches know that.

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how about

Post  8992 on Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:40 pm

NH girls playing basketball in college vs NH boys?

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NH rankings

Post  NHsportsfan on Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:50 pm

What's the big deal about it? They are definitely entertaining and you know every high school player (or parent) for that matter try to promote themselves.(Milford? ha ha just kidding) For most of these kids, who won't be playing in college, it creates a little extra competition between players. For the most part the rankings seem pretty close to what they should be. The basketball rankings seem pretty straight forward. The football ones to me are the ones that really don't make a lot of sense saying that it translates to how appealing they will be for college.

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Re: Are Player Rankings in NH Worthwhile?

Post  EBlessNHSP on Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:55 pm

Good conversation so far...thought that people might have something to say on the subject.


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Re: Are Player Rankings in NH Worthwhile?

Post  HaleyNHsports on Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:14 pm

'For entertainment purposes' ok if that is what you and parents/kids take it as, if that entertains you, fine. No sarcasm, if you think its fun then good. My point is that its the equivalent of going to down to recess at the local elementary school and ranking the kickball games. N.H high school players are competitve and skilled but again, they are playing college basketball with only slightly more frequency as those 10 year olds are going to play kickball after high school.

Coaches have to deal with kids reading this stuff and having an inflated view of where they will end up. The best player for Conant last year was cut from his Division III schools tryout this year, does that make him a failure? Not at all but some list had him in the top 15 last year. Top 15 of what exactly??




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Re: Are Player Rankings in NH Worthwhile?

Post  8992 on Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:19 pm

Athletic scholarships have changed over the years also. “If you can bring more to the dance”, as one coach told me, “the better chance of $ you can get”

He was referring to academics, GPA, class rank….etc

Recently I read a newspaper article how a kid in NH received a basketball scholarship to a D2 school to play hoops. The article said that they were recruited by D1 and D2 schools. The article went on to give the $ amount received by this kid. I was surprised because this person was touted as such a high prospect, but went D2.

My niece was recruited by four different schools to play college ball at the D3 level.
The school she choose gave her an academic scholarship to go there that was more $ then the athletic scholarship that the kid in the article received.
I pulled out a piece of paper and my niece received more and her parents will pay less for a school that is more expensive, and ranks higher academically, then the kid in the article.
My niece “brought more to the dance”, athletic ability and academic ability.

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really

Post  8992 on Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:28 pm

"The best player for Conant last year was cut from his Division III schools tryout this year, does that make him a failure? Not at all but some list had him in the top 15 last year. Top 15 of what exactly??"

Interesting, my niece is playing in the same D3 league. Empire 8


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Re: Are Player Rankings in NH Worthwhile?

Post  NHsportsfan on Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:31 pm

No it's not the same thing as ranking kids playing kick ball at recess. These players are getting ready for their next step in life and sooner or later will be ranked in everything they do. Sometimes ranked fairly and sometimes not...Just like in life. Sports is about competition, winning and losing which involves one player being better or worse than another. Most people involved have "fun" with it if you are not maybe you or your son is not ranked high enough?

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Re: Are Player Rankings in NH Worthwhile?

Post  EBlessNHSP on Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:48 pm

First of all - I don't think because somebody feels one way or another on this subject we need to assume that:

A. It's a player or
B. Its a disgruntled parent

I also don't think people need to get offended b/c one person feels one way on the subject, and somebody else the other way. Keep the conversation sane, points can be made civilly by both sides. I realize this is a touchy subject, especially for those with kids, who are coaches etc.

Now...to my ongoing thoughts on the subject...

Yes, kids become adults and will be judged. But a teenage mind is more impressionable than a 25 yr olds (some might argue that ha). A single adult judging a teenager based on a small sample size is hardly enough to make an accurate and fair representation of where a teenager should fall into a nh hs basketball ranking. Some of these websites don't even indicate WHO is doing the ranking, HOW they're doing the ranking or WHY they do the ranking. It's actually pretty absurd. Kids reading this stuff take it to heart, and it gives them a fall sense of accomplishment and privilege. Coach's hate it b/c they have to deal with it every day in practice. Parents LOVE it if their kid is high, HATE it if their kid is low.

I just don't see a whole lot of good that comes out of it. I understand that it helps "prepare" them for the next stage of their lives and getting judged along the way. But you know what, I'm almost 31, and when I was in high school, we never had any rankings or people trying to promote us, and I've been plenty successful based on the upbringing and molding my parents provided me through my 18 yrs at home.

Trust me - if NH was putting out the talent that a lot of other states are I can see it would be legit. In our small State, so far it just doesn't make sense. These kids aren't playing college basketball, so why are we ranking them, what is the basketball purpose?

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Re: Are Player Rankings in NH Worthwhile?

Post  HaleyNHsports on Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:01 pm

Well said by the Assistant. I'm not a coach or a parent, just someone who loves H.S sports and supports it with my time and money.

To build on that point lets look at 8 of the top players in the state in 2008-09..just two years ago.

Justin Holjo, John Mulvey, Curtis Williams, Jordan Laguerre, Josh Jones, Mike Kimball, Jason Chevrefils and Nicco Demasco.

We'll never agree that these were the top 8 players but let's agree they were all first team all-staters and each was 'ranked' by a kid with a blog.

One is going to play Division I and he went to prep school to obtain that.
One is a reserve at a D II school.
One is playing D III and starting.
FIVE are not playing college basketball of any sort, for a variety of reasons that include their own choice.

So there are 8 top players from just two years ago, five are not even playing anywhere right now.

So again...we are ranking 20 IN EACH AGE GROUP?


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Re: Are Player Rankings in NH Worthwhile?

Post  carp24 on Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:55 pm

our society ranks everything...we rank the "most powerful people in sports", ESPN has power rankings each week in football, hockey, baseball, racecar drivers, team owners...why do you feel because our overall talent level in the state doesn't have the depth that others do, that we can't rate our talent as compared to each other? If you don't think that coaches deal with kids getting inflated ideas as to their talent level based on friends in school...or if they go out and hit 4 threes in one game, they'll feel that they can do that in every one...you have never dealt with or coached kids at any level...these blogs are done with taste (for the most part) and are strickly to solicite interest and discussion on NH High School basketball players/teams/contests...which should be considered a good thing...kids will be kids, and it's the parents and coaches job to help them realize what they are capable of and put them in the best situations to be successful...on the court and in life in general...

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Re: Are Player Rankings in NH Worthwhile?

Post  8992 on Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:00 pm

It appears sometimes that these NH rankings, at this level, are done by people who think they know more then they do. Just like some national sportscasters who love to hear themselves talk, Bob Costas comes to mind.

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Re: Are Player Rankings in NH Worthwhile?

Post  carp24 on Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:17 pm

saying "they think they know more than they do" is your opinion...as is their rankings...if yours differs, post about it...give your reasons why...put your name out there and stand behind your opinion...instead of just bashing somone elses anonymously...

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It is

Post  8992 on Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:23 pm

my opinion just like what you state is your opinion.

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Re: Are Player Rankings in NH Worthwhile?

Post  8992 on Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:28 pm

"It appears sometimes" that is what i said...

If people are going to put out rankings (their opinion) then they shouldn't get upset when someone questions it. Or questions how, what criteria, they used to come to that rank.


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Assistant

Post  8992 on Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:51 pm

Your last post stated it perfectly.

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So don't rank the kids if your not college bound?

Post  basketballtime on Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:34 pm

Hey let's be honest here for a moment. Some of these kids will play college and some won't, and by the way are you guys telling me the ones that are not college bound are not worthy of a ranking? I guess they shouldn't show up for any games too right? Like i said earlier kids are ranked or rated in many different ways from day one all the way untill your six feet under so you better get used to it, and if your not by now then your not helping your kid or kids. And you need to help your kids through all those situations becuase trust me there will be many. When it comes to rankings I honestly have no problem with them because it is a judgement call from one person to another and trust me kids are not stupid they know who the top players out there are because they happen to be the ones who play against them. So lets not get carried away with this whole rating thing it is what it is and always will be.

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The only ones I know of

Post  chicagokid43 on Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:45 pm

There is really only three sites that I know of that rank NH players at all. I will not name names but one is more regional and the person that writes for that one is very influential even writing for ESPN at times. Another is a coach of a AAU program that clearly believes that the D3 players in our state are not worth his time unless they are paying to be part of his camp or visiting his showcase. Then their is one where the person running it bust his butt to see as much hoop as possible often traveling to the far corners of the state to try to have the most information possible. I have never really cared much about the actual rankings but I enjoy the stories and being able to follow other teams in other divisions. When playoff time comes around I can go really enjoy other divisions because I have been kept up to date by the articles and discussion that follows.
While I do not agree that we need to rank every player in the state I think the more names on the list proves that the person ranking does try to see everyone. So at least you know the person doing it is making a fair attempt to give as much of the state a chance to be seen. So while they are players on the list that will never go onto the next level I am ok with that.

I am more offended by the anonymous post and fake names that many hide behind to bash and complain about both players, coaches and yes even referees. I do not believe we will ever be able to respect the opinions of others until we know that the person writing them is willing to sign their name. Many have agenda's and say things just to rattle other cages. Time for all of us who truly think what we say is fact or at least something we believe in sign our names. If you cannot sign your name to what you write chances are you do not believe what you say yourself or you are talking out of both sides of your mouth anyway. I believe everyone has the right to an opinion but if you are going to publicly scrutinize a person on a public forum at least allow the person you are working over to know where it is coming from.


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Re: Are Player Rankings in NH Worthwhile?

Post  8992 on Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:51 pm

People can rank to their heats content, but be honest with the kids and yourself and don’t try to pass yourself off as some expert as some of these people do. I do read the profiles/ backgrounds of the people doing the rankings and the criteria they use (opinion). Just like any of the local sports writers, or parents, you have to take with a grain of salt.

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Re: Are Player Rankings in NH Worthwhile?

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