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Get ready for 2 hour games

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Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  Stripes Defender on Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:26 pm

Rumor has it the high school referees in New Hampshire have been told to call the hand check the same way the NCAA does, basically no contact with a ball handler. NCAA changed the rule a couple of years ago and the number of fouls per game and the time it took to play the game increased noticeably. Sounds a lot like the NFL with all the flags this season.

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Re: Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  Bert54the1 on Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:56 pm

It's about time.

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What you permit you promote (quote from Interpreter)

Post  JAF on Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:46 pm

Benches will have to go 8-10 deep, may have to dig into the JV rosters more...

Hopefully everyone calls it the same way. If so, then I would say by mid January games will be quicker (not only duration, but play on the court).

Applies to the dribbler... Essentially you cannot put two hands on, you cannot put out your hand and ride, a quick space 'check' seems to be acceptible, but only once - if twice, then whistle. I'm wondering if we'll see a few offensive players take advantage and try to draw hand checks by moving towards the defender. And furthermore if they'll be called as charges.

Arm bars down low will be the most interesting - determining if it's "extended" or not and then when the post player receives the ball the hand placement rules will apply.

Of course per usual, parents, coaches, and players will see everything one way and let the officials know throughout the game how "great" of a job they are doing :-)

The good news for officials - the fashion policing of tights, arm sleeves, etc. has been loosened a bit. The players can wear them, all have to be the same color for each team member, have certain other color requirements (black, white, beige, predominent uniform color - could mean need to buy one for each uniform color the team wears).

Free throws have a change - enter the lane on release by shooter


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How about a shot clock...

Post  anotherhoopfan on Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:13 pm

Isn't it about time!

Will we ever see it...???

Why not?

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Re: Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  JAF on Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:43 pm

anotherhoopfan wrote:Isn't it about time!

Will we ever see it...???

Why not?

Oh - missed your title - I thought you were still talking about the new foul calls.

Short answer - won't happen, budgets are too tight. Cannot afford the clock, electrician to wire it, and additional person at the table to run it.

What I wrote originally:

How do you put it delicately enough to not offend T&F :-)  Pick your favorite:

(1) Teaching an old dog new tricks takes time....

(2) Change is hard, everyone is resistant to change...

(3) I've done it this way forever... They don't want it called... So I won't...

(4) All of the above

(5) Other


What's *really* going to be interesting is to see how middle school games are called and of course travel (MSBL) - those programs try to fit games into 75-90 minute slots - that is *not* going to happen if called correctly. You already have to look the other way on many violations for fear of being there for too long.

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Re: Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:30 pm

No big deal with the new defensive contact rule changes. Coaches will have to teach defense the right way. Players will have to stop being lazy and use their feet more on defense. The coaches and players who do the right thing defensively will be ahead of the curve. Coaches and players who don't adjust and just whine and complain will be left in the dust.

Memo to fans in the stands and writers/broadcasters on other web sites:

It will get boring to hear you say, "Let them play" all the time. This is a RULE CHANGE referees have to adhere to. Save your criticism and pointless words in your potential future articles about this subject. It is what it is. Adapt and move on. Stubbornly stay still and use 1 or 2 hands on the offensive dribbler....... Well, that's what reserves are for to replace players in foul trouble or fouled out.

It's a new game fans. Time to put the hands and arms away and use the feet just like your first basketball coaches tried to teach you in the 3rd to 6th grade. Basketball cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers Basketball

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Re: Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  Clancy on Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:48 pm

Here Here!!!

Totally agree with T and F. It's a rule change not up to the officials what to call, they call the rules.

Manchester Officials better get ready for Doc's Head to explode, or Quirky screaming "you don't like us", but all in all makes for a better game.

More scoring, more kids play, less wrestling

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Re: Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  Ironman on Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:29 am

Glad to see that rule change on the free throws. Gives the defensive players a chance to box out.

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Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  tiger46 on Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:44 am

Okay T&F, tryouts haven’t even begun and I’m yelling “let the kids play”. I for one believe that the rule change will make for a less exciting game. I have spoken a couple of referees who don’t like the rule change. One said that he only calls a foul when he believes that the contact has created an advantage in his opinion. With the new rule he will have to call a foul for any contact even if he believes that no advantage was gained. What is the point of that? Do we not trust the referees to call the game fairly? Sure some players have gotten away with too much in the past but, we are not getting new referees. So, some players will get away with too much with the new rule as well. I only see a slower game with less flow and the outcome more reliant on calls made by referees.

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Re: Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:54 am

Tiger46: When you're at your job do you do what your boss says or do you dance to your own tune...... And then find another job??

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Coaches need to adapt to rule changes

Post  Stripes Defender on Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:10 pm

With the season still being a few months away and the coaches being informed of the changes it should not be a surprize when these fouls are called early in the season. At some point the coaches will learn that the sooner they change to the officials the easier it will be. Players will not want to be in foul trouble so they will also change.

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Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  tiger46 on Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:56 pm

Well I’m a really good dancer but, like most of us, I do what my boss tells me to do. Very Happy I suspect that the referees will do what their bosses tell them and call a bunch of touch fouls, especially early in the season. Coaches will likely adapt by playing more zone. Why play aggressive man to man when the risk greatly outweighs the reward this year. A passive zone defense is not what the players want to play. It is not what the fans want to watch.
Can someone tell me who was so outraged that stricter interpretation of the hand check rule needed to be implemented? I don’t think the coaches like it. I don’t think the referees like it. I don’t think the players like it. What is the point?

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Re: Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  Clancy on Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:41 pm

Any time you put your hands on a ball handler it is an advantage to the defensive player (otherwise why would they do it?)

The really good players are going to love this, the bad players will see no change.

Have you watched Central play? Trinity? Part of there excellent defense is handchecking. HANDCHECKING. No more manhandling. "Let them play" means let them play basketball not football.

Teams will adjust, the good coaches will quicker than the bad.

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Re: Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  Bert54the1 on Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:01 pm

I hope that hand-checking will be curtailed. Sure, basketball is a physical game. I get it. But in NH this change was a long time coming.

In NH you never had to practice defensive slide drills. Either with your hands behind your back or hands outstretched, plams-up, you didn't need that skill. That's the lost art. Just get your guys in the weight room and teach them the hand-check. Now, coaches will actually have to stress the correct way to play.

The title of this thread, 2-hour games, says a lot about the few officials who actually do not like this rule. I can't believe there are those who like this type of physicality? Talk about a lack of flow. Maybe those who don't like to call fouls simply want to get out of the gym as quickly as possible. I have seen too many games that have been officiated like that.

I do agree with one statement made Do we not trust the referees to call the game fairly? In a perfect world we all believe in the truth of that statement. But that's not the nightly truth in the world of NH basketball.

In another quote-where an official is quoted....
One said that he only calls a foul when he believes that the contact has created an advantage in his opinion. With the new rule he will have to call a foul for any contact even if he believes that no advantage was gained. What is the point of that?

In regards to that statement, isn't a "foul is a foul is a foul" a good philosophy? Since when is it the official's job to interpret advantage in a foul. We are not talking about two players who get tangled-up trailing a play. Advantage or no advantage? We talking about on-ball defense. And wether you agree or not, I don't believe it is that easy to ascertain the effect of a strong hand check on a ball handler.

Let's start by calling the game the way it should be called. That is all that anyone involved in the game can hope for.


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Re: Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  Bert54the1 on Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:02 pm

Good post Clancy.

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Re: Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  JAF on Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:03 pm


Well if officials are supposed to call it the way it should be called, then...

Coaches should coach their players properly

Players should adhere to the rules

Those that don't should be taken out by the coach

Rather than being forced to sit by the official

Leading to more official bashing.

I coached travel through grade 6 - it drove me nuts to see other teams mauling my players... I used to tell them, if they want to wear your uniform, ask them to come to the tryout at the beginning of the season rather than trying to steal your jersey. My players weren't all angels, but they were taught defensive principals. They *hated* the z-slide drills run every practice, but at least they got taught that.

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Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  tiger46 on Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:25 pm

I see that I’m in the minority and that’s okay. It’s a good debate. I like hearing everyone’s opinion. Frankly, I hope this works out to be a non-issue. I just get nervous when the powers that be start making adjustments to the rules. I’d hate to see good teams switch to a zone defense for fear of foul trouble turning the game into a 3 point shooting contest or some team winning a game on 35 for 40 from the free throw line. Maybe I have an overactive imagination.

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Re: Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  Bert54the1 on Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:36 pm

I certainly hope that the goal of every coach is to teach his players to play the correct way, but I am not so naive as to believe that that is always true.

The difficulty I have is with the statement Coaches should coach their players properly
Players should adhere to the rules
. Fouls happen in much the same way as missed shots and turnovers. Now, if we are talking about flagrant "dirty" play, then we definitely believe a coach needs to intervene.

Consider a coach who knows an opponent is "emotional" and has a specific "tough" player assigned to cover him. Ethical?

Or a coach who has two bruisers for big men while you have a big man who is more of a finesse player. Have you ever heard that coach say to his team "we have 10 fouls to give, we'll use them all."

Coaches certainly need to coach their teams to play the game the correct way. That goes without question. However, like players, and like coaches, there are good and bad officials as well as many in between. Just as coaches, bloggers, and officials know who the good players are, coaches and other officials know who the good officials are, and nobody bashes good officials.

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Re: Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:43 pm

I simply harken back to the days I coached when my children started playing basketball. I coached them and their mates to move their feet on defense. I NEVER taught them to use arms & hands on defense because that was the WRONG way to play defense.

So, what got lost in the transition to HS? Well, in the last few years there were too many HS coaches in this state that tried to out-defense the opponent instead of outscoring them. And you wonder why a 52 to 48 score was more prevelant on game nights. How many times did you see a game described as a "rock fight?"

Yup, time to get back to basics like "using your feet on defense." Any referee who decides to ref "his way" instead of doing it the "new way" is doing so at their own black & white peril.


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Re: Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  JAF on Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:11 pm

We had a coach at the interpretation meeting flat out admit he'd tell his players they could get away with a bit more tonite because he knew who the officials were. He also went on to say that he's in favor of the changes. They key phrase he left with was just be consistent.

I know fouls happen, but does it have to be every single play? How much is too much? What is your tolerance level?

Like T&F says - you teach them one way, but eventually they run into another coach that doesn't reinforce your goals/ideals and well I think you see what we have.

It's this way partially because calls aren't being made. Who wants to be there all night? Who wants to watch the Freshman play the Varsity game?

I think the hope/goal is to swing the pendulum the other way a bit with regard to how much physical play and close contact will be allowed. I doubt teams will go zone unless they are in foul trouble. You can still play man to man defense - you just have to do it right. Like the saying goes - beat your opponent to the spot... quick feet. Eventually it will be very clear who is a basketball player and who is not.

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Re: Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:17 pm

With regards to the last paragraph of the above post by jaf:

cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers

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Re: Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  Clancy on Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:22 pm

Most people would say adjusting to the way the officials call the game as good coaching.  If an official allows players to hand check (and the Manchester refs certainly do)  it's good coaching to tell your kids to hand check.

As a matter of fact you are at a disadvantage if you don't and the other team does.

We can all say we love it, I am not certain the ref's have the cojones to call it and be consistent.

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Re: Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:38 pm

Uhhh Clancy, there's over 400 active HS basketball refs in NH. Less than 30 are "Manchester Refs."

A Central - Memorial game could be reffed by officials who live in Salem to Portsmouth to Bow to Amherst to Hopkinton to...... OK I hope you get the point.

When you refer to cojones, it could be cojones that reside in Salem to Portsmouth to Bow to Amherst....... Just saying. Wink Wink Wink

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Re: Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  Ironman on Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:41 pm

Part of the problem with the players picking up bad defensive habits (playing defense with their hands instead of their feet) stems from AAU basketball, where the officiating is very inconsistent and generally more lax than NHIAA officiating. Players coming off their AAU seasons have to be "re-programmed" to play less physical defense, or they will find themselves in foul trouble very quickly.

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Re: Get ready for 2 hour games

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:06 pm

Preaching to the choir Ironman. I was Reffing at an AAU tournament somewhere in the US last May. After the 4th game my court was 10 minutes behind schedule. As I was sitting trying to relax for a couple of minutes the Tournament director came over and told my partner and I to get our court back on schedule. He pointedly said to call less and get back on schedule.

Didn't seem like the director and the tournament were too worried about the soon to be new defensive contact rules. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Get ready for 2 hour games

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