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knee to marbles

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knee to marbles

Post  The Edge on Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:05 am

Doesn't a knee to the marbles warrant an ejection. To get a technical instead of a normal foul the ref had to feel there was intention behind it. And no I am not a Pembroke hater.

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Re: knee to marbles

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:49 am

Interesting question Edge.

I do know any intentional striking to an opponent's head is more severe in penalty than a non-head striking to an opponent.

You have shoves, pushes and punches. Each can be taken and dealt with in their particular foul order:

Personal, intentional, technical and flagrant.

If I may go into a mind of a ref on the court, it was just so shocking to see Welch do something like that seconds into the game. With it being so early and considering the player and what he means to the game (Once again refs are human and put their pants on one leg at a time), it would be difficult to eject a player seconds into a game for a non-head strike.


Now, if we're in the 3rd and 4th quarter and there had been a series of physical incidents and then this same thing happened in clear view and the refs had enough with chippiness on both teams........ Well, you could have a different ruling.

Remember, after the opening tap the Portsmouth defender was TOTALLY in Welch's grill. Some Pemby fans would say, upon further review, that the defender and Portsmouth had it in their game plan to do this intentionally to illicit an "ill advised" decision from Welch. If so, then mission accomplished for the Clippers.

Personally, I like Pat Welch. I think it was TOTALLY uncharacteristic of him. He is a good player and a sportsman on the court. I have found Pembroke to be one of the better behaved teams. The incident doesn't change any of my feelings on Welch and his Spartan mates with regard to on court behavior.

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Re: knee to marbles

Post  dj5hoop on Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:15 pm

There is a lot of mugging going on off the ball against the top players which is really no different then its ever been. Clearly it is very frustrating for the player who is constantly mauled and last night was an example of the cumulative effect of dealing with this type of hands on defense. The great neutralizer to off set superior ability is to be physical and yes dirty. No matter what, the better player has to know what's coming and they have to keep their cool. The knee to the "marbles" was indeed worthy of an ejection. It's really no different then a punch if done intentionally. If you turn the situation around where the better player is mugging their opponent, they would probably be fouled out in the first quarter which is crazy.

So what is the solution? I do think a third referee would help clean up the off the ball stuff but for now it is irrelevant with only two officials. Most officials should know who the top players are and they should also know what's coming. As always, setting the tone early with some whistles will help settle things down. Maybe two quick fouls on the mugger will send an early message that they actually have to defend properly. Basketball is physical and I would not want to see a foul every time someone was touched. You can be physical defensively and still stay within the boundaries permitted. Most of these defenders who are doing the intentional mugging are throwing out all defensive principals as they never look for the ball nor do they play any kind of help defense. It's almost like the cornerbacks who don't turn their heads on the pass in football. It's a no brainer pass interference call. As I said, once these guidelines are established early in the game it should eliminate some of the off the ball muggings.

On a slightly different note, does anyone preach help defense or understand defensive rotation anymore. This is how you limit some of the top scorers. Make someone else beat you which is essentially what Coach Mulvey did last night against Pembroke. Top scorers are not necessarily the best players. The best players can help their team win even when they are not scoring. As Larry Bird once said, the best players are the ones who pass for the score.

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Re: knee to marbles

Post  The Edge on Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:06 pm

At the risk of offending the 1000s of female forum members. It would be tough for me to decide if I would rather take a shot to the head with my brain in it or the one I actually think with.

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Re: knee to marbles

Post  JAF on Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:02 pm


Edge is trying to redefine the concussion rule... Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy 

Couple of thoughts

- Not sure I agree an official should know the top player from either team. Obviously they do, but does knowing that result in different decisions based on what is seen on the floor?

- Do you really believe 3 referees would stop the "freedom of movement" for said "top players"?

- Officials do spend time before every game going over the rules, talking about what each knows about each team, etc. They certainly know it's a pair of top teams (hence you probably saw "A" officials). The purpose of this "pregame" is to help prepare for what might be seen that night. Certainly there are things you cannot prepare for.

- Officials are taught to officiate the defense. 10 seconds into a game someone mugs a player and it's called and so is the (ahem) "retaliation". Probably a good way for 2 officials to send the message that it's going to be called and if you retaliate, then we're going to handle it. Tossing a player 10 seconds into a game is something you have to defend internally and externally. Officials like to be a part of a good game between two teams playing hard. Give both a chance to see where things take them and handle it from there. Giving a technical should be severe enough to send the message (it counts as a personal and if you get another you are disqualified, so beware). I think in order to decide whether to eject, I'd have to see a pre-meditated kick rather than perhaps what someone could say was an off balance reaction as a result of being mugged (something I saw last week in a game).

- Defense is preached by HS coaches not AAU coaches :-) (oh wait, that's a *DIFFERENT* argument)

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Re: knee to marbles

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:14 pm

"I think in order to decide whether to eject, I'd have to see a pre-meditated kick rather than perhaps what someone could say was an off balance reaction as a result of being mugged (something I saw last week in a game)."

Jaf


This hit the nail on the head with regards to the situation. It's easy for a fan, who's never reffed a high level game, to say Welch should've been ejected. There is a fine, but distinct line, between pre-meditated and "off balance" reaction to being mugged in the first few seconds of a game.

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Re: knee to marbles

Post  JAF on Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:09 pm


and you have about a 1/2 second to make that determination... if not less...


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Re: knee to marbles

Post  Tuesday and Friday on Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:29 pm

Exact - O - Mundo and Correct - O -Mundo  study 

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Re: knee to marbles

Post  SeacoastDad on Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:30 pm

dj5hoop wrote:
On a slightly different note, does anyone preach help defense or understand defensive rotation anymore. This is how you limit some of the top scorers. Make someone else beat you which is essentially what Coach Mulvey did last night against Pembroke. Top scorers are not necessarily the best players. The best players can help their team win even when they are not scoring. As Larry Bird once said, the best players are the ones who pass for the score.

Coach Alosa agrees with you:

"We went cold and they capitalized," Pembroke coach Matt Alosa said. "Our guys other than Pat need to be more aggressive when they're double teaming him and the guy that's loose needs to attack the basket instead of settling for outside shots. ...; Portsmouth, for me, has the best help-side defense in the league where they really do a good job of shutting off the baseline. You've got to make an extra pass from there, and we really didn't do it."

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Re: knee to marbles

Post  Hooper on Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:58 am

Seriously?

Kneeing someone in the marbles doesn't change your opinion of them? Ask Windham about if this is an isolated incident.

Not taking the player out of the game is also a discussable matter? We aren't talking about being mouthy, we are talking about violence.

Ask Kingswood what they might think about the Spartans sportsmanship?

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Re: knee to marbles

Post  JAF on Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:40 am

Hooper - did you read any of the replies? Or are you wearing your anti PW or PA glasses? Re-read T&F's 11:14 am response.

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Re: knee to marbles

Post  Division2Watch on Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:31 pm

At least one coach has sent in that evidence to the NHIAA and I'm sure several teams are looking for this Pembroke player to receive a suspension, similar to the one Lebanon's Nic Shepard received for elbowing Ben Lynch in the Hanover game.


Last edited by Tuesday and Friday on Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:51 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Please don't go on a witch hunt for players on this Forum. Trust me, you won't last long as a member. Keep it respectful.)

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