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2012 D1 Baseball Playoffs

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Re: 2012 D1 Baseball Playoffs

Post  DBack on Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:22 pm

Honestly JAF I don't think you and I are too far off in our opinions.

If you can prove to me that this guy was thumbing his nose at the people who enforced the penalty then by all means he deserves everything he gets, but honestly when I read that rule, it says to me that the coach is to not be present during the games in which he is suspended. Can he be at the practices? If so, why not the practice before the game?

Remember when our former president said.... "It depends on what your meaning of the word "is" is." Well in this case the word "event" was not clearly defined.

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Re: 2012 D1 Baseball Playoffs

Post  JAF on Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:30 pm

DBack wrote:
Remember when our former president said.... "It depends on what your meaning of the word "is" is." Well in this case the word "event" was not clearly defined.

Precisely!

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Re: 2012 D1 Baseball Playoffs

Post  NativeFan on Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:38 pm

JAF and Dback...I agree with you both the definition of event is vague...until you read the last line of the last answer in the series of questions. Unfortunately the rule itself does leve it open to interpretation and it certainly appears that the "opposing" interpretations led to this unfortunate result.

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Re: 2012 D1 Baseball Playoffs

Post  bball4life on Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:02 pm

I agree that the rule is not written clearly enough. But assuming it was clear enough that the NHIAA was going to enforce a forfeit until the Coach and AD resigned, then where in the rules does it state that the NHIAA may waive the forfeit requirement if the coach resigns. I don't support a forfeit. These kids played hard and deserve the win. Just trying to understand how the Coach and AD resigning resolved the issue.

What are the rules for a coach that resigns. Can he attend the championship game as a regular fan? Can he coach somewhere else next year with no penalty (like Calipari)?

Definitely a strange situation...


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Re: 2012 D1 Baseball Playoffs

Post  SeacoastDad on Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:14 am

JAF wrote:What we don't know in this scenario is whether it's talked about during the annual coach's meeting and/or if the Merrimack AD attempted to get a clarification on the policy. If it was talked about and chosen to ignore, then I can understand the NHIAA position. I can also see where a coach's disregard for the rules would hurt the team, although a tough lesson (it's a similar scenario to the 9 inning issue w/ Portsmouth). If it wasn't talked about and no clarification made, then it's kind of a head scratcher scratch...
You can bet there will be two clarifications made in the off season - because that's why we have these special clauses/rules...

#1. The 9 inning rule issue - there's vagueness in the P&P whether "1 pitch" applies only to the 5 inning max and days rest and whether that same 1 pitch relates to the 9 inning rule. This is because other parts of the rule indicate that innings are counted in thirds and that going beyond a max won't be penalized if there's a double/triple play to cause the maximum to be surpassed.


JAF - 1: I certainly hope that you are not continuing to assert that the Portsmouth coach intentionally "disregarded" the rules when he sent his pitcher out to pitch the 10th inning, especially after he took the time to clear it up for you on this very forum.

2: I'm not finding any "vagueness" in the pitching rule. Here it is:

25. PITCHING RULE – Regular Season and Tournament: The following rule applies to all levels of baseball (Freshman, Junior Varsity and Varsity) and is effect for this baseball season.
A. A pitcher who throws more than five (5) innings in a day must have three (3) full days of rest before pitching again.
NOTE 1: Just one (1) pitch more than five (5) innings constitutes more than five (5) innings.
NOTE 2: For the purpose of this rule a pitcher who appears in more than five (5) innings must have three (3) full days of rest before pitching again.
i.e.: A pitcher who appears in more than five (5) innings on Monday cannot pitch again until Friday.
B. A pitcher shall throw no more than fifteen (15) innings in a seven (7) day period with no more than nine (9) innings in a day.
NOTE 1: One (1) pitch does not constitute an inning. Total innings are figured in thirds (1/3) of an inning.
NOTE 2: It is not a violation if a double or triple play puts the pitcher over the fifteen (15) -inning limit in a seven-day period. (i.e. pitcher has pitched 14 2/3 innings and a double play occurs or 14 1/3 innings and a triple play occurs.)

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Re: 2012 D1 Baseball Playoffs

Post  JAF on Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:33 am



JAF - 1: I certainly hope that you are not continuing to assert that the Portsmouth coach intentionally "disregarded" the rules when he sent his pitcher out to pitch the 10th inning, especially after he took the time to clear it up for you on this very forum.

2: I'm not finding any "vagueness" in the pitching rule. Here it is:


1. Nope - my point being consistency on the penalty if such an event occurred regardless of whether it's intentional or not. Perhaps hard to convey in black&white. I agree that the Portsmouth coach stated his case here and I'm OK with his explanation; however, would you call me out if I didn't have the same feeling for the Merrimack situation? That is - that the penalty must be enforced because that's how it's written, regardless of how unjust it is to the players.

2. Perhaps vagueness was the wrong choice of words, maybe inconsistent would be better. These situations get hot and very emotional very quickly. There are those that would argue (rules guys, mind you) that the rule allows one pitch to mean more than 5 innings, but not more than 9 or 15 innings which is inconsistent and when you're reading these rules as the situation is happening could result in the wrong interpretation. Compare that to the 9 & 15 inning portion of the rule where innings are measured by outs. Furthermore, for "B" if I've thrown 8 2/3 innings with 1 out and there's a double play to end the inning, does the note specifically state I wouldn't be in violation of the rule? Generally speaking, the "A" clause talks about in a single game/day while the "B" clause talks about over a period of days, but throws in a 9 inning per day clause for some unknown reason. Let's take this a bit further, how would you rule on Tue the pitcher throws 5 innings and torrential rains come so the game is suspended. On Wed the same pitcher comes out and the game goes into extra innings. Is the pitcher who threw Tue eligible to pitch Wed and then for how long? Ignore the insanity of a coach or parent allowing this to happen for a moment and just play the game :-). The way I read it, as long as the first pitch of the 6th inning wasn't thrown, then that pitcher could go at least 9, and perhaps 9 2/3 innings (assuming a double play in the 14th) and we're still within the scope of the rule.

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Re: 2012 D1 Baseball Playoffs

Post  SeacoastDad on Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:54 am

JAF wrote:


JAF - 1: I certainly hope that you are not continuing to assert that the Portsmouth coach intentionally "disregarded" the rules when he sent his pitcher out to pitch the 10th inning, especially after he took the time to clear it up for you on this very forum.

2: I'm not finding any "vagueness" in the pitching rule. Here it is:


1. Nope - my point being consistency on the penalty if such an event occurred regardless of whether it's intentional or not. Perhaps hard to convey in black&white. I agree that the Portsmouth coach stated his case here and I'm OK with his explanation; however, would you call me out if I didn't have the same feeling for the Merrimack situation? That is - that the penalty must be enforced because that's how it's written, regardless of how unjust it is to the players.

2. Perhaps vagueness was the wrong choice of words, maybe inconsistent would be better. These situations get hot and very emotional very quickly. There are those that would argue (rules guys, mind you) that the rule allows one pitch to mean more than 5 innings, but not more than 9 or 15 innings which is inconsistent and when you're reading these rules as the situation is happening could result in the wrong interpretation. Compare that to the 9 & 15 inning portion of the rule where innings are measured by outs. Furthermore, for "B" if I've thrown 8 2/3 innings with 1 out and there's a double play to end the inning, does the note specifically state I wouldn't be in violation of the rule? Generally speaking, the "A" clause talks about in a single game/day while the "B" clause talks about over a period of days, but throws in a 9 inning per day clause for some unknown reason. Let's take this a bit further, how would you rule on Tue the pitcher throws 5 innings and torrential rains come so the game is suspended. On Wed the same pitcher comes out and the game goes into extra innings. Is the pitcher who threw Tue eligible to pitch Wed and then for how long? Ignore the insanity of a coach or parent allowing this to happen for a moment and just play the game :-). The way I read it, as long as the first pitch of the 6th inning wasn't thrown, then that pitcher could go at least 9, and perhaps 9 2/3 innings (assuming a double play in the 14th) and we're still within the scope of the rule.

1. We are definitely in agreement that if a clearly defined rule is violated, regardless of whether the violation was intentional or accidental, the penalty needs to be enforced.

2. I agree that the "one pitch" versus "thirds of an inning" is inconsistent, and Rule 25 B is incomplete. In your example "Furthermore, for "B" if I've thrown 8 2/3 innings with 1 out and there's a double play to end the inning, does the note specifically state I wouldn't be in violation of the rule?" I agree, this scenario is not specifically addressed. Note 2 of part B should be amended to include the same double play/triple play language as in the 15-inning rule.

In your second example "Let's take this a bit further, how would you rule on Tue the pitcher throws 5 innings and torrential rains come so the game is suspended. On Wed the same pitcher comes out and the game goes into extra innings. Is the pitcher who threw Tue eligible to pitch Wed and then for how long?" I would rule that the pitcher is eligible to pitch on Wednesday because he did not pitch one pitch more than five innings on Tuesday the "day", and he would be eligible to pitch 4 innings on Wednesday (provided it didn't put him over 15 for the tournament), because it is a continuation of the same "game" from Tuesday.

Once we get this one figured out, we can move on to curing the common cold! Very Happy

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Re: 2012 D1 Baseball Playoffs

Post  JAF on Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:36 am

See two different opinions of "game" vs. "day"... Letter of the law vs. the intent of the law.

I will guarantee one coach will argue that the pitcher must come out after 9 total in the game even though it's over two days, while the other will say it's not written that way. Then the following year a rules writer will clarify or change the rule based on some incident such as this. There many examples sprinkled throughout the rule and interpretation books...

Ever wonder what umpires and referees do in their spare time? Rolling Eyes

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Re: 2012 D1 Baseball Playoffs

Post  SeacoastDad on Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:32 am

JAF wrote:

Ever wonder what umpires and referees do in their spare time? Rolling Eyes

Lasix surgery maybe? cheers cheers cheers

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Re: 2012 D1 Baseball Playoffs

Post  SeacoastDad on Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:15 am


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Re: 2012 D1 Baseball Playoffs

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